What if a cop thinks my knife is illegal?

L

lerner

Joined
Sep 1, 2008
Messages
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I've read the Missourri state law, so I'm not asking if my knife is legal. The MO knife law is just as ambiguous & vague as you've all seen in your own states.

The problem is this: What if I made every attempt to carry a legal self-defense knife, but an officer has a differing opinion & says "Hand it over (for confiscation), or you'll be charged..."

Without arguing, I could explain my understanding of the law, and he might get upset.

I could show him a Xerox of the law, or a letter from Bernard Levine. He might get upset.

I could say "You can confiscate it, but please put it somewhere safe (evidence locker?) at the station. A lawyer will contact you soon to retrieve it." If he just takes it home can he (the officer) be charged with stealing?

A quality ($150) knife is not something I'd happily part with. Does the state reimburse me for lawyer's fees if I was innocent all along? (I'm afraid I know this answer...)

For simplicity, let's ignore the possibility of obtaining a Concealed Wepons Permit.
 
Why not ask the local PD for their interpretation of "dangerous weapon" or whatever is illegal in their eyes.

I would drop the self defense language. It only invites trouble.

What are you hoping to carry?

Stabbing people in self defense is a lot like getting an enema in the sense that it may be neccessary, but noone wants to plan for it or hear about it.
 
I've asked a few officers from different departments; they seem unsure of the knife-legality details (such as the definition of a dagger). Or they hesitate to give you a straight answer, look at you strange...

I wanted to stay away from the question "Do you-all think this particular knife is illegal?". The situation is more like "He thinks its a dagger, I say its not". The board's definitions of dagger wont help.

And I have heard you shouldnt use the phrase "self-defense knife" in front of a cop.

Also, in the situation I'm concerned about, I wasn't using the knife; the officer just saw or found it on me in a routine stop.
 
This question does come up a lot and I've pondered it myself. I would first add that most of the times a police officer encounters a concealed knife on a person, the encounter was initiated by pretty obvious criminal acts that usually are not related to the knife. Just sayin'. When I read summaries from cases, that generally how it goes.

With that said, there are "innocent" encounters on occasion. In that case I'd offer this advice:

1. Don't argue or get defensive. Just hand it to him if he says so. Sometimes this is just a precaution, and he may give it back when you're done talking.
2. Be nice, and state you explanation very plainly. "It's a useful thing to have. I open boxes/whittle/etc." Don't BS, they can tell.
3. If the officer is intending to confiscate the knife without arrest or citation, most PDs require it be stored and documented. Some don't. But it doesn't hurt to ask for a receipt/other info about following up to sort it out. If the officer threatens to include a summons with a receipt, I'd say go for it anyway. Confiscation technically skirts around due process, so if a summons is issued, at least you will have your day in court to make your case.
4. In the above, yes the officer CAN be liable for theft if their was not proper documentation. Not an easy road to take, but I have seen it pay off on occasion.
5. You cannot recover legal fees if you hire a lawyer, but I wouldn't let that stop me from getting one. You could sue to recover them, but that generally is hard to win.
 
Don't know what your state's law says but strive to give no cop a reason to see or even question your knife...
 
GSW said:
Don't know what your state's law says but strive to give no cop a reason to see or even question your knife...
Click to expand...
:thumbup: Heck I have never been so much as spoken to about the five different blades on my person.
 
Never tell a cop (or anyine else for that matter) that the knife you are carrying is for self defense. It is a tool you use for ______ (insert personal reason for use....besides self defense). Saying the knife in your possession is carried for self defense automatically makes it cross the line from a tool to a weapon, which in many areas makes it illegal. In most areas, tools are legal to carry (within reason), while weapons not so much.
 
glistam said:
This question does come up a lot and I've pondered it myself. I would first add that most of the times a police officer encounters a concealed knife on a person, the encounter was initiated by pretty obvious criminal acts that usually are not related to the knife. Just sayin'. When I read summaries from cases, that generally how it goes.

With that said, there are "innocent" encounters on occasion. In that case I'd offer this advice:

1. Don't argue or get defensive. Just hand it to him if he says so. Sometimes this is just a precaution, and he may give it back when you're done talking.
2. Be nice, and state you explanation very plainly. "It's a useful thing to have. I open boxes/whittle/etc." Don't BS, they can tell.
3. If the officer is intending to confiscate the knife without arrest or citation, most PDs require it be stored and documented. Some don't. But it doesn't hurt to ask for a receipt/other info about following up to sort it out. If the officer threatens to include a summons with a receipt, I'd say go for it anyway. Confiscation technically skirts around due process, so if a summons is issued, at least you will have your day in court to make your case.
4. In the above, yes the officer CAN be liable for theft if their was not proper documentation. Not an easy road to take, but I have seen it pay off on occasion.
5. You cannot recover legal fees if you hire a lawyer, but I wouldn't let that stop me from getting one. You could sue to recover them, but that generally is hard to win.
Click to expand...

This is excellent advice.
 
lerner said:
I've read the Missourri state law, so I'm not asking if my knife is legal. The MO knife law is just as ambiguous & vague as you've all seen in your own states.

The problem is this: What if I made every attempt to carry a legal self-defense knife, but an officer has a differing opinion & says "Hand it over (for confiscation), or you'll be charged..."

Without arguing, I could explain my understanding of the law, and he might get upset.

I could show him a Xerox of the law, or a letter from Bernard Levine. He might get upset.

I could say "You can confiscate it, but please put it somewhere safe (evidence locker?) at the station. A lawyer will contact you soon to retrieve it." If he just takes it home can he (the officer) be charged with stealing?

A quality ($150) knife is not something I'd happily part with. Does the state reimburse me for lawyer's fees if I was innocent all along? (I'm afraid I know this answer...)

For simplicity, let's ignore the possibility of obtaining a Concealed Wepons Permit.
Click to expand...
I don't know about Missouri, but in New York, I'd hand it over. Yes, it could be that the cop simply wants a new blade. Well, he's got a gun and a blue wall behind him, as well as the entire armada of the legal system.

You can't win them all. Hand it over, and hope that your fingerprints on the knife aren't going to get you in trouble later on...

After all, $150 is a lot cheaper in the long run, than any negative encounter with the law. Even an arrest that doesn't end in an indictment, still stays on your permanent record, and is likely going to cost you in the long run.
 
Comply with whatever the officer tells you to do, but don't forget to invoke you're right to remain silent- what you say can hurt you.

A quality ($150) knife is not something I'd happily part with. Does the state reimburse me for lawyer's fees if I was innocent all along? (I'm afraid I know this answer...
Click to expand...
Usually defendants are not reimbursed for the costs of their defense.

but an officer has a differing opinion & says "Hand it over (for confiscation), or you'll be charged..."
Click to expand...
They are supposed to give you a siezed property reciept. If they did not offer one, I would certainly (in a calm and polite tone) "Officer, could you please provide me with a reciept for that property." If they said no way, I would not hesitate to politely ask if he could call for a supervisor. If he did not call one, just allow the contact to end as it may, on peaceable terms- at least you aren't being hooked and booked. Make sure you take note of the officer's name, department, and badge number. Immediately contact the police department and inform them of the situation (if you were in fact not doing something criminal by carrying- if your knife was technically illegal and you get away uncharged, be happy). File a formal complaint against the officer if necessary. This will be investigated by the department and could result in criminal charges against him (or just internal sanctions).
 
Be polite, and I've been advised by family members in LE when asked if you have any weapons on you/in the car to say something along the lines of "No weapons, but I do have a pocketknife". They never like suprises, and finding a knife that you did not mention to them makes them question your honesty in the rest of your responses. When dealing with LE there is often little choice but to cooperate, and try to remain civil. If faced with confiscation, perhaps mention some sentimental value the knife has to you. Ask if the officer is going to write a report of the incident, and get the report number, as this would likely include that he confiscated the knife, and I believe would be functionally a receipt. Stay calm cool and collected, and chances are everything will be alright.
I've been stopped before for a traffic violation and when I mentioned the "No weapons, but I have a pocket knife" the officer didn't even bat an eye.
 
These are really great suggestions. Many thanks to glistam and the board members with legal or law enforcement experience.

I didn't get any comments on carrying a letter (with a picture of the knife) from a local lawyer or Mr. Levine (Something along the lines of "This does not fit any definition of a dagger, it is a folding knife, and is completely legal for carry..."). I suppose an officer can just ignore it, and it wouldnt change anybody's mind, regardless of what it says?
 
How about not getting you self in a situation where you have to explain your knife to a cop. Because its all up to the person stopping you. You could talk to 100 different officers and get different answers from all of them. The best answer would be don't flash large tactical type knifes in public. Carry a small slip joint for everyday cutting tasks. Drawing attention to yourself is only asking for trouble. Just my opinion.

And if you do get stopped, I think this line from Lethal Weapon 4 pretty much sums it up:
"You have a right to remain silent. So shut the f@ck up. You have a right to an attorney, if you cant afford an attorney we'll provide you with the dumbest f@ckin lawyer on earth."

Just walk away and buy a new knife.
 
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lerner said:
I didn't get any comments on carrying a letter (with a picture of the knife) from a local lawyer or Mr. Levine (Something along the lines of "This does not fit any definition of a dagger, it is a folding knife, and is completely legal for carry..."). I suppose an officer can just ignore it, and it wouldnt change anybody's mind, regardless of what it says?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that isn't going to work. An officer isn't a judge that you should be trying to convince. They will probably ignore the letter because, for one, they have no reasonable way to know it's even legit. You could have written it yourself for all they know. It's not the same as a legally recognized and authenticated document such as a driver's license or Concealed Weapon Permit. They're really just opinions.

Now if you pull out a notarized court order (which would be a neat trick) that's another matter.

Your best bet really is to ask that they contact a supervisor, who are usually very knowledgeable.
 
We have 2 categories in Oz - owning and carrying. While it's legal for us to own a whole lot of different knives, carrying the majority of them in public can cost you: loss of knife; fine; criminal record.

If a cop decides that you do not have a legitimate use for the knife in your possession (even if it's a SAK) you may have a legal bunfight ahead of you. Keep a low profile (don't go strutting around like you've got a tennis ball in each armpit), or disturbing the peace. If questioned by a cop - be polite and cooperative and most cops will be sweet - give any attitude or lip and the situation can escalate very quickly.
 
lerner said:
Without arguing, I could explain my understanding of the law, and he might get upset.

I could show him a Xerox of the law, or a letter from Bernard Levine. He might get upset.
Click to expand...

I would say trying to convince an officer or show him a letter will likely piss him off. I wouldn't recommend it.
 
I wouldn't even call it a pocket knife while I was informing the officer. I would refer to it as my "work knife." Mine has always got a little bit of tape residue on it from opening boxes. If you are that worried about having to explain it, cut some tape and get your knife a little bit dirty.

I have a concealed handgun license, so any cop who happens to pull me over is going to know right off the bat that I don't have a criminal record. I also had to go through an FBI fingerprint check for the licensing process. I might be wrong, but I think that knowing I have a gun would make the cop a little less worried about what knife I'm carrying.
 
shootist16 said:
I would say trying to convince an officer or show him a letter will likely piss him off. I wouldn't recommend it.
Click to expand...

Yup- you don't argue matters of law to cops on the side of the road- you argue those points to judges.
 
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any property seized by an officer should be:

a. booked as evidence, or
b. destroyed in the field (small amounts of marijuana, tobacco from minors, etc).


you should also get a property receipt. if it is being booked as evidence, you have probably already been arrested or cited.

if you are found innocent or the charges are dismissed, your property should be returned.

keep in mind, you admit the knife laws are vague, and may believe your knife is perfectly legal. this is an opinion, and the opinions of the officer or judge may differ.
 
I think there's something wrong when the law is written in such a way as to prevent you from knowing what it says. It would seem that such a law would violate the Constitution.
 
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