What is a bowie exactly, anyway?

E

edrozen

Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
365
With all due respect, I don't think you guys should be calling your bowies, "bowies". Now, I don't want anyone to think I'm mad or upset about this, I just wanted to talk it out, in a frienldly kind of way. What's my definition of a Bowie. Well, let's ask the expert first, the one, the only, Mr. Webster Dictionary:
ed: Thanks for joining us today, Mr. Dictionary
Webster: Always a pleasure to join you folks here at the forum.
ed: As you know we need a little help here...
Webster: Ask no more, let me get strait to the point, ed:
This is from my 2nd college edition, new world Dictionary, ed, on page 168, I've written "[after Col. James Bowie] a steel knife about 15 inches long, usually carried in a sheath, originally by American Frontiersman as weapon"
Alright, as far as I'm concerned SOG has mislabeled the Bowie on 2 points
1) the size is just not what I expect when I see a bowie.
2) And more importantly; It doesn't carry the Spirit of the American Frontiersman. It is a modern military-style knife. What do you guys think?

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EdRozen-On the cutting edge of finding out what the cutting edge is....

[This message has been edited by edrozen (edited 04-01-2000).]
 
Hi Ed,

What can I say? "You're right?" Nope. Sorry. Entertaining? Yup, as always.

I cite two sources.

First, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary website, www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm, whichs defines a "bowie knife" as: "a stout single-edged hunting knife with part of the back edge curved concavely to a point and sharpened."

Second, the A.G. Russell Knife Encyclopedia, www.agrussell.com/faq/index.html, which defines a "bowie knife" as: "A large knife with a blade that might range from 6 inches to 14 inches; the original had a blade that was probably 9 inches long with a sturdy guard projecting from both the top and bottom of the knife between blade and handle. Invented by Rezin Bowie and made famous by his brother James, who died at the Alamo."

Your topic title was well-asked. "What is a bowie exactly, anyway?" But you went on to say that "SOG has mislabeled the Bowie" on the two points you outline. Both points are based on "what I [Ed] expect" and "the Spirit of the American Frontiersman." Neither of which are currently tangible, but rather subjective from one person to the next.

You also quote your edition of the Webster Dictionary. Let's, for a moment, ignore my two cited sources and look at yours. There are two elements present in that definition: Fact and qualified statements. Fact #1: A steel knife. Fact #2: Originally carried by the American Frontiersman. Fact #3: A weapon. Qualifier #1: ABOUT 15 inches long (does not indicate whether that is blade length or overall length, most likely, though, overall). Qualifier #2: USUALLY carried in a sheath. Nothing is said about the SPIRIT of the American Frontiersman, ONLY that it was ORIGINALLY carried by the American Frontiersman. The door is wide open for others using, evolving, perfecting, and adapting the knife through history. With facts #1, #2, and #3, SOG knives meet those definitions. With qualifier #1, my math comes to a 9" blade after the deduction of 6" of handle and crossguard. The TigerShark "bowie" is 9" long. With qualifier #2, our fixed-bladed bowies are carried in sheaths. With your definition, we meet all facts 100%. With the qualifiers, we're just fine.

But this is based on YOUR stated definition. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary website is clearer in that a bowie knife must be "stout," "single-edged," and "the back edge curved concavely to a point." SOG: 100% compliance. The A.G. Russell online Encyclopedia, knife experts, states that a bowie knife be "a large knife with a blade that might range from 6 inches to 14 inches" and "with a sturdy guard projecting from both the top and bottom of the knife between blade and handle." SOG fixed-bladed bowies: 100% compliance. It also states that the original was probably 9" long (likely the blade length).

The other point I'd like to make comes down to "general blade types." There are several general blade types. The major ones are: Drop point, clip point, dagger, spear point, tanto, and of course, bowie. These labels ignore blade length issues and refer to blade shape. The Merriam-Webster definition is clearest: "the back edge curved concavely to a point." This is what makes it different from the others. The "general blade types" definitions are industry terms which allows us to classify knives. "The SOG Pentagon is a dagger." "The SOG Tsunami is a tanto." "The SOG Tech is a bowie." Let's take this one step further. Since evolution is prevalent in almost everything, variations of these labels happen. Example #1: The SOG Vision is actually a "modified" tanto, defined as the added edge on the back of the knife dipping toward the tip. Example #2: SOG uses a "modified" bowie design on several of its knives (such as the SOG Bowie, Trident, and SOG Tech) shown by TWO sections (or three, if you count the portion nearest the tang) which are concave on the back of the blade leading to the tip.

BladeForumites: In the words of Ed: "What do you guys think?"

Ron@SOG
Ron Andersen

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 04-02-2000).]
 
Whoa, Ron, pulling out the big guns for this one, are we?
Let me first say that in no way did I intend to say that SOG is in anyway misrepresting their (your) knives, nor did I say you are wrong to do so. However, looking back at my post I did say "as far as I'm concerned SOG has mislabeled the Bowies" That might sound harsh, and on second thought, it might be. Of course, your right is to call your knife anything you damn well please (within the law) such as "Dolphin killing bowie knife" or whatever. No matter what it is called it did not prevent me from buying it.
Down to the nitty-gritty.
I will relate to you my first experience of seeing the SOG-bowie. I went to the knife counter and was talking to the "guys". I had just gotten into knives and the guys kind of had a good idea of what I liked. So, as expected, one of the guys suggested I look at the SOG-Bowie on the bottom shelf, where there were a good number of other knives as well. I looked and looked, and I asked the guy "what Bowie?", and he said, "down there at the bottom." Scratching my head, I looked again. I still couldn't locate the knife he was refering to. Thinking it must have already been sold or hiding, I asked him to show me exactly what he was talking about. And the rest is history. I still feel the same way. IMO a Bowie should be instantly recognizable as such. Yes, I do realize this is purely subjective, and that's what I was trying to (miserably) convey, especially when I said a Bowie should be in the Spirit of American Frontiersman.
I will go on to say that I still feel that the knife would more properly be called a fighting knife. Are Bowies fighting knives? of course. Are all fighting knives Bowies?, nope, again, purely subjective. However, I will say in less subjective terms that there are many, many fighters available by many companies that would fit into at least one of the definitions given. Do these qualify as Bowies? I don't think so, and neither do the companies that sell them. When I look at the SOG-Bowie, to me, it is much more remniscent of the many modern fighteres available. Fighters is much more of a "catch-all" term, whereas "Bowie" is more of an exclusive term to be used only when you can look at thing and know 100% that's what it is. And quite frankly, I'm glad that many people have chosen not to over-label this time honored American tradition.
Or that's my opinion anyway, and I hope I haven't caused any hard feelings..

And thanks for the compliment!!! (I do try so hard, you know):
What can I say? "You're right?" Nope. Sorry. Entertaining? Yup, as always.

BTW Ron, if you're reading this right after I wrote it, hang on, I might have to edit.

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EdRozen-On the cutting edge of finding out what the cutting edge is....


[This message has been edited by edrozen (edited 04-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by edrozen (edited 04-04-2000).]
 
Hi Ed,

Yes, our knives are modern fighting knives, but they are of a bowie design. Other manufacturers make hunting knives of a bowie design (such as a Buck hunting-style knife), but they, too, do not look like the original Bowie.

The original SOG Bowie name was actually adopted from knife designers/professionals in from the Vietnam special forces. We just (and justifiably) followed their lead.

Ed, you are entitled to your opinion. In this case it is highly narrow and not likely shared by professionals in the knife industry. Our knives have been reviewed by many of the best knife authors in the industry. They have been both quite favorable and critical where justified. They have supported the bowie label time and time again by using it. We at SOG have never, by anyone, ever been questioned on the "bowie" label. Oh, there has been one.......I forgot already.

Ron@SOG
 
Given the, at best, confused situation regarding the original Bowie knives (see the discussions involving Mssers. Levine and Fisk over in the General Discussion Forum), I suggest that we all take a deep breath and let people do more or less as they like on calling kives "Bowies".

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
To ME, a "Bowie" is a fixed-blade between 6" and 15", with at least one guard (usually two), with about 50% of the spine either sharpened or with a false edge that could be sharpened if desired.

Once you have that down, the REAL question is "is it a lightweight blade fighter, or a heavy blade fighter/utility?".

Lightweight types of "pure fighter" Bowie include the Mad Dog Panther, several Ernie Mayer designs and the Bill Bagwell Hell's Belle amd Gambler. All three use flat grinds to drop the blade weight down to a radical degree. They're not prybars, they won't win any SEAL trials, and you'd have to be nuts to try and pry open a stuck ammo can or whatever with one. But the handling is pure "sex in steel"...and if the research of Bill Bagwell, Keating and others is to be believed, these are close to what a serious bar-room brawler on the Mississippi in 1835 would have packed.

In their size and weight class, these are some of the best fighting blades ever made.

Jim
 
Thanks guys for your input...I agree.

Ed and I have traded some emails out of the forums and have agreed to disagree...I think we're fine.
smile.gif


Ron@SOG

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
A Bowie is a big bladed knife, that literally has come in almost any blade shape imaginable. There is no set design and I have seen many samples in museums, which looked so different that I would have called them daggers or butcher knives. Knives 2000 has a lot of old Bowie knife pictures and, again, there is no set style or trademark. The Sandbar Bowie knife looked like a big butcher knife and the alamo knife looked different than that. So are Sog Bowies, really Bowies. Yes, they are Big and hefty.
 
Yeah, Ron and I are cool now. I was going to avoid this thread like the plague, but I couldn't help myself..... I thought this thread was long dead, until about 5 postings popped up one full week after my (and Ron's) original postings.
thanks all for your input

BTW The "well known" Bowie shape was tradionalized and popularized well before the actual shape of the original Bowie was ever "discovered". (see BRL's book for details)


[This message has been edited by edrozen (edited 04-22-2000).]
 
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