What is Buck's Steel history?

Dan of Bazz Clazz

Dan of Bazz Clazz

Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
736
Sorry if this is a well covered topic already. I did not find anything in the forum searches that I did to find the answer on my own.

I have a Buck 102 that I bought as a kid in the early '70's. I recall Buck having the reputation back then for having really hard steel and holding an edge. This was back in the days when their marketing and logo was a buck knife being hammered through a nail. Yes, I am that old. They appear to have gone away from that logo and marketing at some point of time between my purchase, and my relatively new collecting habit. (I can stop whenever I want to)

Anyway, after that long winded introduction, here is my question.
What was the steel used by Buck back in the early 70's? I doubt it is todays 440C. No marking on the knife itself and a question sent to Buck CS got no response. Has it always been 440C or did they make changes along the way?
 
Back then I know it was 440c, then they went to 425m ( not sure what this is ) , and now they use 420hc.
Not sure what they started out using though because they were basically hand made early on.
 
Here you go....

Before 1981 it was 440C
In 1981 to 1993 it became 425M
Starting 1993 and beyond 420HC

The salient fact in all this is that most people don't realize just how good 420HC is.......but with the Buck heat treat it's competitive with some of the best steels--at a bargain price.
 
Last edited:
Why the changes?

The 425MOD allowed fine blanking and was easier on equipment than the 440C.

The change from 425M to 420HC came when Buck discovered they were the only ones requesting 425M and the special request made it more expensive.

Thus we have the 420HC that we all know and love.

:)
 
Steel for the Camillus contract 300 series does not follow the comments above.

Bert
 
The Buck knifes of the late 1940's to mid 1950's was files. Then around 1960 a forged 440C blade started being used. Then in early 1970's a
stock removal 440C blade started to be used. Then for folders 1981 was the last year 440C was used. For fixed blades 1985 was the last year
440C was used. Buck started using 425M in 1982 with folders and 1985 with fixed blades. In 1992 Buck phased in 420HC steel across their
product line. DM
 
David Martin said:
The Buck knifes of the late 1940's to mid 1950's was files. Then around 1960 a forged 440C blade started being used. Then in early 1970's a
stock removal 440C blade started to be used. Then for folders 1981 was the last year 440C was used. For fixed blades 1985 was the last year
440C was used. Buck started using 425M in 1982 with folders and 1985 with fixed blades. In 1992 Buck phased in 420HC steel across their
product line. DM
Click to expand...

Thanks, Dave. I have heard it said that 440C was used a bit longer for fixed blades, but I don't recall seeing any documentation on that.

There have been, of course, leftover blades of 440C turning up here and there for years and being used in "Build Out" knives. I don't doubt there are still a few laying around.

:)
 
On fixed blades they didn't use dots for dating. So, you go by the spacers in the handle and the blade grind. In 10 years a company gets to know a steel pretty good. The reason Buck switched from 425M to 420 was they often found inclusions in the first that didn't lend well to mirror polishing. Then it was found that the second steel could hit 58 on the Rockwell scale. Plus, no voids in it's matrix and was made in the U.S..
Then easier to tool so production went up and cost went down. DM
 
Last edited:
What a puzzle that post is, Dave.

Like I said, I don't recall seeing any documentation for your claim. We all know there are no dots on fixed blades.

Second steel could "fit" 58 Rockwell? Are you saying that the first steel couldn't?

Since we're talking about three different stainless steels (440C, 425MOD and 420HC) you should say what you mean by "second steel?"

Second steel made in the U.S.? Are you implying that some other steel wasn't? All three were made in the U.S. as far as I know.

Inclusions? Mirror polishing? These were minor considerations. The big reason to drop 425 MOD was that 425MOD was a more expensive special order and there was no reason to bear the extra cost of being the only buyer of 425MOD. This is well documented.

Are you saying that 420HC is easier to tool than 425MOD??? Haven't seen any documentation on that either.

Sometimes it's hard to see where you're coming from, Dave.......really.

Please to elucidate.
 
You just don't like it that I have found information you don't know. Which you sound much like a past member on here. His tactics were well known. Your nerdy, so, read the post again. I never mentioned 3 steels in it. That was you. Only 2. I was finished talking about 440C. I've not heard of the
stuff you mention about leaving 425M as a valid reason. I'll not bite on it. DM
 
David Martin said:
You just don't like it that I have found information you don't know. Which you sound much like a past member on here. His tactics were well known. Your nerdy, so, read the post again. I never mentioned 3 steels in it. That was you. Only 2. I was finished talking about 440C. I've not heard of the
stuff you mention about leaving 425M as a valid reason. I'll not bite on it. DM
Click to expand...
I'm nerdy?
LOL! No need to throw insults, really. I was honestly trying to understand your post. If you don't want to explain it, I'll just consider it an unexplainable bunch of gobbledegook and ignore it.

You said you had not heard that the reason Buck switched from 425MOD was because it was an expensive special order.

Here's an old thread to help you. Now you know.

Quote from Joe's post #15:
"We changed from 440C to 425mod because we wanted to fineblank our blades. If we could fineblank them, we could get greater accuracy on our tolerances. Much more accurate than trying to mill and drill later. We could also make the blades quicker which translated into keeping our cost down, always a good thing. This is vastly diferent than saying we "went to a cheeper steel to cut costs". Remember Chuck's law, only then it was also Al Buck's law. That 425mod was a special steel the mill made for Buck, and we paid for it.
Then years later, at the mills request, we considered the change from 425mod to our current 420hc. We were the only ones that wanted 425mod and they mainly made it for us because they liked us...seriously! But 420hc was an on the shelf variety of steel and was basically the same so...Many test later, as mentioned above, and we made the switch."

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/1968-buck-ad.467641/

We can all help each other with information here. In the future I trust that it can be done without you getting upset, Dave.
 
Some guys have different mannerism in asking (discussing) too. A steel w/ vanadium in it will be harder to cut. Leroy has mentioned the presence of inclusions, Paul Bos too. I've found them when polishing that steel. (these were present in the forged 440C blades which have been talked about on this Forum). All very real personal experiences. But you only take it as valid when you find it in writing. DM
 
I take it as valid when it's a documented fact that I can quote.....not mysterious and verbose claims that somebody mentioned this or that sometime or somewhere.

Thanks for a revealing exchange.
 
Dave is quite educated on many topics and bucks. hes been very helpful to me and my questions and others here. never known him to say anything that wasnt true.

if he says it, i believe it.
 
Since we seen to have answered the OP question and embarked on steel talk.......You know I have never kept the steel details in my head, except some limited info on 300's. I think Bert has surpassed me on that count. I have only two 110's and maybe 6 112's. I have only sharpened two of those, a 425m era 112 and a 420hc era Selector for hunting. I do know from sharpening a 105 in 440 it takes more effort, but then again I use rod sharpeners. For 300s I like the late 80's models in 425m, I guess because they were different and flat ground. The modern 420hc seems about the same to my lowly rod sharpening. In the little Vantages I like the Swedish steel just cause it was different also, the 420 seems to do fine. Oh, almost forgot I have Vantage in s30v also and it is tough on my white ceramic rods. Anything else I got I have no experience with since it is a collector knife. 300
 
The time lines for 440C, 425M, and 420HC are right, but let's not forget that in between these dates, from time to time, Buck would put out knives in a variety of steels, such as BG-42 (great stuff), D2, among others. Still later they produced knives in S30V for regular production for Cabelas and special runs, as well as S35VN, S90V, and other steels.
 
There were also ats-34, 154cm, cpm154, Ti coated steel, 12C27M, 13C26, 5160 and other steels that Camillus used. Then damascus.DM
 
Last edited:
OK, if we are going to make a complete list add the ATS, CPM and Dami names. Like I said I am not a steel guy so someone (Doc) figure them out and add.

Edit: Ok, David types faster than me, Damascus, who made Bucks ?

Unless Bert has a list, I have always just said Camillus contract knives were just plain ole 420 with no BOS. 300
 
Last edited:
Your contact over in the Camillus Collectors Forum said they used 440A from time to time. DM
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top