what is comparable to sandvik Z60CDV14?

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

Z60CDV14. only three knife manufacturers i know of use this. what can it be compared to in a more well known steel? i know sandvik always claims that 12c27 for instance is better than 440a. they say there is more to metal than it's ingredients. anyone that knows about metalurgy or has a knife (crkt) that has this type of blade please comment on your experiences with it. i was hoping this stuff is comparable to 154cm or bg42, but i am doubting that.

thank you,
holdanedge.

Cliff Stamp · Oct 16, 2002

holdanedge :

[Z60CDV14]

they say there is more to metal than it's ingredients

A metals properties are defined by its composition, method of manufacturing and the heat treatment process. Unless you are given reason to believe otherwise, the last two factors are similar if not identical for most production knives thus it is the steel composition that is the deciding factor.

i was hoping this stuff is comparable to 154cm or bg42

It is very similar in composition to AUS-6M, so it is more like 440A. Significantly softer with far less wear resistance than BG-42, but more ductile and tougher and easier to machine. For most light cutting, BG-42 would allow a finer edge which would stay sharp longer. Z60CDV14 would be more suitable for rougher use.

Ref :

http://www.crkt.com/steelfct.html

-Cliff

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

thank you for the reply, mr. stamp.

i know that everytime the conversation of which metal is "best" comes up, the final answer is it depends on what it is being used for. i just don't understand why 440a, aus6, or (Z60CDV14) are usually seen on INexpensive knives? whereas, most of the expensive knives use bg42 or 154cm.

before the search was turned off here, i saw a lot of posts that stated 440c was the minimum acceptable metal to most knife nuts.

judging from crkt's chart i guess they mean to say aus118(which they also use) is better than the Z60CDV14. i take it the aus118 is between 440c and 154cm? is the main objective of Z60CDV14 to lower cost, or just be different?

thank you,
holdanedge.

Cliff Stamp · Oct 16, 2002

holdanedge :

i take it the aus118 is between 440c and 154cm?

Yes, it would be in the same class as those steels.

is the main objective of Z60CDV14 to lower cost

Yes. You could argue for the use of such steels (440A, AUS6) on salt water diving knives as they have a very high corrosion resistance, but for most utility knives, you would in general be better off with a harder and more wear resistant alloy like BG-42 or similar.

-Cliff

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

you explained it. thank you mr. stamp.

this brought some other questions to mind, though. according to darrel ralph, http://www.darrelralph.com/ddr_engineering_main.htm , bg42 is directly comparable to 154cm? would most people agree with that? pretty much all of the custom knifemakers are using ats-34/154cm from what i can tell. only a few use s30v which according to mr goddard, is about 30% "better" than 154cm.
now, vg10 i take it, is another cost saving metal? but, no doubt a good one. william henry uses 154cm on the expensive models and vg10 on the less expensive ones. from all of this, i can gather that 154cm is tried and true. it is like the new 440c i would think.
it seems 154cm is what you will find on the largest percentage of quality knives these days. i just don't understand why a $300 sebenza has s30v and most $1,200 customs have 154cm!
anyways, i am now forgetting about the sandvik stuff!

thank you,
holdanedge.

rev_jch · Oct 16, 2002

European equivalent to 440 (swedish)

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

companies compete by making comparable products with different names! i now understand, however that the sandvik stuff is bassicly 440a. mystery debunked! i also reckon that if you compare products from the same company that they have a range that goes from mediocre/cheap to brilliant/expensive. well i figure this would be the case with crucible at least. i don't know if sandvik's top product is all that great.

holdanedge.

Coonskinner · Oct 16, 2002

I don't think that 154 CM is quite dirctly comparable to BG-42, although for most knife users, the differences wouldn't be hugely signifigant.

The Vanadium content in BG-42 would probably give it at least some edge over 154 CM in terms of wear resistance and grain refinement. Someone like Cliff please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as William Henry's use of 154 on expensive models and VG-10 on less expensive models, I don't know. I'm not familiar enough with their knives to make a call. If that is indeed their practice, I would be interested in knowing their rationale, since I like the performance of VG-10 better than 154 CM. Maybe 154 takes a high degree of polish easier?

My VG-10 blade from Spyderco doesn't have a mirror polish, and actually has some waviness in it if you look at it in the right light, but that just may be something about the way Spyderco does their finish.

What about it, guys? What is the scoop on William Henry's steel choices?

Cliff Stamp · Oct 16, 2002

holdanedge :

bg42 is directly comparable to 154cm?

They are in the same class, BG-42 is usually regarded as slightly better in terms of grain refinement and has greater wear resistance. It is also described as being able to take a better edge, but you are talking about literally splitting hairs. It also has a higher max hardness (64 RC as opposed to 62 for 154CM), though the latter is rarely used.

vg10 i take it, is another cost saving metal?

VG-10 is a high end stainless, in the same class as ATS-34, generally ran 1-2 points softer, so a slight tradeoff of edge holding ability for durability.

why a $300 sebenza has s30v and most $1,200 customs have 154cm!

Once you move beyond a certain price point, the steel no longer has any influence on the price, and functionality isn't often the driving goal.

-Cliff

Quiet Storm · Oct 16, 2002

Many people report that Sandvik performs similar to 440A, but it is supposed to be able to take a sharper edge.

rev_jch · Oct 16, 2002

Ive used a laguoile in sandvik and didnt notice any difference between it and 440. took an edge fairly easy, just like 440, edge seemed to hold out about the same.

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

thank you all for replying.
i originally thought that sandvik 12c7 was like 440a and that Z60CDV14
was more like between 440b and 440c. anyhow, it is certainly not a "high end steel". mr. stamp, i see your point that the steel doesnt really matter in a ultra high end knife. they are probably not going to ever be used anyways. it is the workmanship and other materials that drives up the price. not the selection of blade steel. i think.
for a less than 3" folder mainly used for opening letters, cutting open boxes(taped part) and cutting small vines in the garden, is 154cm good enough? i mean if the knife you love is only available with 154cm(or bg42) in this size should that thwart me from having it? i think the umfaan might only come in bg42. if i go for a small sebenza with s30v, will i really notice any difference for what i want to do with a knife this size? or is having s30v in this little knife mainly for "bragging rights"? i have noticed mr. reeve has switched from ats-34 to bg-42 to s30v. i do not know if he is continously improving his product, or if it is mainly a marketing idea. also is s30v even as stainless as 154cm? i thought as the metals get more durable and hold an edge better, they become less and less stainless?

thank you,
holdanedge.

Quiet Storm · Oct 16, 2002

Oops, obviously I confused those two Sandvik steels - I thought there was only one with the special description "Sandvik". So my statement above applies to Sandvik 12c7. I´m sorry.

Cliff Stamp · Oct 16, 2002

holdanedge :

for a less than 3" folder mainly used for opening letters, cutting open boxes(taped part) and cutting small vines in the garden, is 154cm good enough?

Yes, easily. Even AUS-6 would be fine, you would just want a quick and easy way to touch up the edge, either using a smooth steel, or a set of crock sticks.

if i go for a small sebenza with s30v, will i really notice any difference for what i want to do with a knife this size?

Actually, Reeve is leaving his S30V soft compared to the norm for 154CM. For many cutting chores, the harder 154CM blades would stay sharp longer and take a finer edge. But in general, no, for occasional light use you won't notice a difference. You would want to be cutting a lot of material very frequently. This assumes you are not going to alter the knife by grinding it. If you reshape the edge, you can notice differences in the steels readily.

or is having s30v in this little knife mainly for "bragging rights"?

Speaking in general, when you use a higher end steel, you can design a more efficient cutting geometry. If you just leave the knife exactly the same, it can actually get worse. It is the geometry that defines how the blade will cut, so make sure that is suitable first. Specific to the use you described, A.G. Russell offers a fine choice, "tactical" label not withstanding :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171296

It is a little longer than you noted, but should offer very high performance cutting and easy handling.

-Cliff

holdanedge · Oct 16, 2002

thank you mr. stamp.
i am now happier with my 154cm blades! i guess my only remaining questions are: has mr. reeve done anything with the s30v umfaan geometry that makes it far superior to the bg42 umfaan geometry? how much does geometry factor into such a small blade that obviously has it's limitations anyways? does 154cm from any company aproach the overall quality of the reeve s30v?

thank you,
holdanedge.

Cliff Stamp · Oct 16, 2002

holdanedge :

has mr. reeve done anything with the s30v umfaan geometry that makes it far superior to the bg42 umfaan geometry?

Nothing that I have read.

how much does geometry factor into such a small blade that obviously has it's limitations anyways?

This is very true. If your cutting tasks are very light, then as long as the edge is very sharp you will be fine. However if you do want to cut into thicker material, then the shape of the edge matters much more. Thicker edges also require you to remove more material to sharpen them, so from a maintenance standpoint they are less than optimal as well.

does 154cm from any company aproach the overall quality of the reeve s30v?

Quite frankly, for that type of knife, I would rather have ATS-34 at 60-62 RC than S30V at a lower hardness. There may be some benefit in regards to durability, but from what I have read it doesn't look like it. Based on what I have seen, S30V should be ran hard like R.J. Martin and others are using it to maximize its abilities.

-Cliff

holdanedge · Oct 17, 2002

thank you mr. stamp. you have answered all my questions perfectly! i have many good 154cm and bg42 knives. so i think i will skip the umfaan for right now and move directly to a little custom damascus folder i would like. i am not at all concerned with the properties of the damascus, this next one will be solely a safe queen. well, to be exact it will be on my desk at the office. mr. reeve if you happen to be reading this, don't worry! i am sure i will get more of your knives soon. i just decided to get something different first.

thank you,
holdanedge.