What is it?

[Triton]

I'm doing a scabbard up for this one for a customer. He tells me he got it at a steal, I think on ebay. I'm wondering if any of you know what it is. I've never seen one just like it, although admittedly it's outside my area and these may be very common for all I know.

I don't know what to say about it. I think it's a decorative or possibly a stage prop piece, it's certainly not balanced like any rapier I've ever handled, that is to say it handles more like a fencing foil then a rapier.

The side ring is ridiculously large and you can't grip the sword as you would a rapier either.

The fittings however are iron or steel, not pot metal as I would have thought for a decorative piece.

The large hollow? pommel seems to be peened in place.

I would have written if off entirely but today I noticed an inscribed signature on the blade at the juncture with the cross. Unfortunately some idiot has polished a good bit of it off and I can't make out the rest. At first I thought it said "Coburn and Carmichael" but now I don't think so. The picture didn't turn out great, but I'll try posting it again with different light later.

Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated.

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[horseclover]

Similar to a few other 19th century decorators I have seen, especially the over large side ring and the cast iron parts. The blades are sometimes quite good, as having been recycled from something else. Ron Ruble had one with similarities to this one and I'll poke around via archive.org for one of his older pages. These types pf older "castle decorations" have some collecting merit on their own adna s mentioned occasionally with better blades than one might think.

Cheers

GC

 

[Triton]

Thanks guy, I would appreciate anything you can dig up. Admittedly it was primarily with you in mind that I posted here. As you say, the blade on this one appears to be quite nice, with a complex cross section, double fullers and a pronounced mid rib. It also exhibits distal taper. That sort of complexity is not something I would have expected to see on a purely decorative piece, so it makes sense that it would not go with the blade.

 

[horseclover]

Unfortunately, Ron Rubles site has code on his old pages that deny crawling some of the old sales sections. The sword I was remembering sold way back in 2002-2003, so I am not surprised the pictures would be gone.

Could the letters on the blade read Coulaux Klingenthal ? I don't know the blade in instant recognition but there were an awful lot of blade types in the 19th century and before. However, I don't think it is much earlier than the period of the hilt parts Second Empire French maybe but I am guessing at that. 1860s or so for the blade.


If you are registered at Viking Sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/ , there are a lot of eyes familiar with the blade type. Or, even over at SFI in the A&M room. MAny of the same folk.

Cheers

GC
GC

 

[Triton]

Could the letters on the blade read Coulaux Klingenthal ? I don't know the blade in instant recognition but there were an awful lot of blade types in the 19th century and before. However, I don't think it is much earlier than the period of the hilt parts Second Empire French maybe but I am guessing at that. 1860s or so for the blade.


If you are registered at Viking Sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/ , there are a lot of eyes familiar with the blade type. Or, even over at SFI in the A&M room. MAny of the same folk.

Cheers

GC
GC

Yes, yes, that might be exactly what the blade reads! I'll have to look at it again tonight when I get home! The first letter was definitely a "C", then an "o" then a "u" then what I thought was a "b" but could well be an "l." I will definitely look.

Assuming that is what is on the blade what does that mean? I'm not familiar with the name at all? Although I guess I could do a google search here.... hmmm

 

[Triton]

Well drat, after a quick look, I'm a little less excited. These swords seem to be of French manufacture and since they were manufactured they seem to have blade stamps. This one isn't a stamp but rather engraved script on the blade edge at the forte. Not completely ruling it out, I need to look at it again, but it seems a bit less likely now, drat it all.

 

[horseclover]

All is not lost, methinks. First to determine that you are truly seeing what I was suggesting. There a was time in history when French military swords were to be made and inspected primarily at Châtellerault instead of Klingenthal, Coulaux Klingenthal was still in business way into the 20th century and some blades did not bear stamped marks but the script on the forte remained common to the business. Here is an 1860s blade I own by the company and the two sides showing the two names. This one has inspector and controller poincons (stamps) but the lack of them on a given sword only means they were then sold through private parties. Still not an absolute, this blade with stamps was cutlered by a maker in Paris.

Here is another. While this looks very much like an American 1840 nco sword, it is actually an 1816 pattern

If you can get a better picture of the script, or confirm what I am suggesting, we'll go from there.

A basic site with some info for French swords. Jean Binck, long gone from spending time on the boards is still a fount of knowledge.
http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/

Blades having both the names Coulaux and Kilingenthal would be after 1836 (earlier for commercial blades), when the government felt Alsace was too close to the Prussian control.

Cheers

GC