What is "Not Enough" for an outdoors/survival knife?

The_KaramVit

The_KaramVit

Joined
Jan 29, 2014
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494
Wanted to get some thoughts on this. I've been interested in lightweight fixed blades such as CRKT Obake and Cold Steel Spike as i do not want to spend so much for an outdoor/camp knife. The most extreme use for these blades would probably be light batoning of tree branches. Typical, heavier outdoor blades (examples being Becker BK14, ESEE RC3, BRK Bravo Necker 2) deemed fit for outdoor use are about 0.14-0.17in thick. Typically greater than .125, in general.

The lightweight blades i've listed are 0.12-0.13 and have slimmer profiles. I've seen thinner blades being batoned with and still am puzzled why people do not think a slim, lightweight blade cannot make it in the outdoors. I will reference Mike Gavko and his 0.09in. fixed blades which he designed and are capable of splitting wood.

I'm basically looking for someone to tell me something i do not know regarding these blades and tell me why they are not popular as outdoor knives. I am seriously considering carrying a CS Tokyo Spike (Nice Scandi grind) or a CRKT Obake (good length and weight). I feel like they can both help me in a situation of defending my life as well as batoning tree branches but am not certain anymore due to the general consensus. Also let me know of some similar alternatives!
 
Get a Schrade Extreme Survival in 1095. Not a lot of money and will do exemplary work in the woods or on the street. keepem sharp

PS the best cheap folder I have tried in a long time is the COAST FX 350 or 352. I've bought several now to give away as gifts and all have been stellar.
 
longbow said:
Get a Schrade Extreme Survival in 1095. Not a lot of money and will do exemplary work in the woods or on the street. keepem sharp

PS the best cheap folder I have tried in a long time is the COAST FX 350 or 352. I've bought several now to give away as gifts and all have been stellar.
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That knife is wayyyyyyyyy too long for me. I'm looking for 3.25-4in
 
If you aren't flat out abusing your knife, or using it to do non-knife tasks such as prying and so on, then thinner knives will work just fine. It's just marketing for the most part, that has convinced people that they need a sharpened prybar for a survival knife. There are people who go out on weeklong camping trips with nothing but a Mora knife and a packsaw, and they get along just fine.
 
Quiet said:
If you aren't flat out abusing your knife, or using it to do non-knife tasks such as prying and so on, then thinner knives will work just fine. It's just marketing for the most part, that has convinced people that they need a sharpened prybar for a survival knife. There are people who go out on weeklong camping trips with nothing but a Mora knife and a packsaw, and they get along just fine.
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Thanks for than. definitely will not pry or do anything that will produce bending stress out of axis with the blade. i dont believe a knife is designed for that. Have you any experience with 8Cr1xMoV in outdoors use? I'm wondering about chipping. I appreciate that it is easy to sharpen when outdoors.
 
I can't speak to 8CR13mov in an survival/camping situation specifically, but I DO carry a few of the less expensive Kershaws and have whittled with them in a few different types of wood, with no issues. I haven't ever batoned with these knives, because they're folders, and I don't get out to the woods as often these days.

Again, this goes back to the keyword: abuse. As long as you keep your mind about you, and use some good technique, you'll be fine, no matter what steel you're using. I've seen Youtube videos of people batoning through wood using nothing but an old pot metal butter-knife, so I know steel isn't the primary indicator of outdoor performance. People have camped and survived in the wilderness for hundreds of years without needing knives a quarter inch thick made of super steel. So, if you're trying to keep the money expenditure down when purchasing a new knife, keep that in mind. I mean, hell, the Buck 119 was one of the go-to camping knives for the longest time, and that knife features 420HC with Buck's fantastic heat treat. That was more than good enough for decades. Same with the old Ka-Bars. So, yeah, just pick a good fixed blade from a reputable company, in a price you can be happy with, and use it with some common sense, and you'll have a knife you can pass down to your kids.
 
The_KaramVit said:
I'm basically looking for someone to tell me something i do not know regarding these blades and tell me why they are not popular as outdoor knives. I am seriously considering carrying a CS Tokyo Spike (Nice Scandi grind) or a CRKT Obake (good length and weight). I feel like they can both help me in a situation of defending my life as well as batoning tree branches but am not certain anymore due to the general consensus. Also let me know of some similar alternatives!
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Why is the CS Tokyo Spike not a popular outdoor knife? Because it is not an outdoor knife. It's a spike. For stabbing into fleshy things.

And tell me...with that false edge on the spine of the Spike...how are you going to baton it?

Here's my two cents. A Mora is a wildly popular, functional outdoor knife. And guess what. You can stab somebody with it if so inclined. Get one. That beats a knife you can stab somebody with that is not a functional outdoors knife.
 
I think a short, thin blade is fine, a short, thin handle can be very problematic. My hands ache just thinking about carving any amount of wood with a Cold Steel Spike. For an outdoor fixed blade the handle is the most important factor for me.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
I think a short, thin blade is fine, a short, thin handle can be very problematic. My hands ache just thinking about carving any amount of wood with a Cold Steel Spike. For an outdoor fixed blade the handle is the most important factor for me.
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I agree. If you do any kind of work with a skinny handled knife you're hand is going to cramp up and the webbing of your hand will ache. I would second a mora companion mg. Nice and thin(sub 3/32" thick) and has a great ergonomic handle. My guess is that it will hold it's edge longer than the other two as well. There's a reason for their popularity. Their cheap too. :D

As to your question in particular. There's nothing wrong with thin bladed knives but you lose a couple of things. For one you won't be able to pry and that can be a sticking point for people but I've never had to pry in the woods. The second is that when you baton a thick bladed knife tends to wedge the wood apart whereas something thin, like a thin machete, tends to cut it's way through. Both methods work just fine but you're more likely to have the thinner knife wedge and get stuck. This where your second knife comes in to cut a wooden wedge to get the first knife out. Or you could have just started with wedges. :D
 
Being that this forum tends to attract some people who are very thoroughly educated in knife materials and construction, it's easy to get overwhelmed with technical information coming from numerous sources, while I've spent time on various other forums where these finer points rarely get mentioned. There are a lot of outdoor enthusiasts who couldn't tell you what steel their favorite knife is made out of, identify the type of grind, or even remember the brand without actually looking at the knife. They find something that works without obsessing over details. Then there are those who buy whatever looks cool.

The knives I've used for actual work haven't been made of amazing steel - usually 420HC, 440C or 8Cr13Mov - and only a couple actually failed under use. They were thrown away because I'm not going to put myself in the ER because I used a knife proven to be untrustworthy. Those that don't hold an edge well get relegated to light use and those that prove to be durable are the ones I trust, regardless of materials, brand or country of origin. It's worth it to "field test" a knife under normal working conditions before trusting it to do real work.
 
I've got a couple of nice outdoors knives (Bark River Gunny Hunter, Enzo Trapper), but one of my favorite knives is a Mora Companion HD (carbon steel). I had a custom Kydex sheath made for it and it's outstanding. Lightweight, sharpens extremely well, and cuts like an absolute demon. Great knife. Available in stainless if your adventures involve getting wet.
 
You might consider a Spyderco mule. You can get it in a lot of different steels, and the blade geometry is right where you want to be. My K390 mule is 3.5 inches long, with a tang thickness at the handle of 0.114, but there is a strong, even distal taper and a full flat grind. At mid blade, the spine is just 0.09 inches thick.

People underestimate the geometry of the mule. It is really a great knife, and Spyderco does a great job with its heat treat.
 
Inazone said:
Being that this forum tends to attract some people who are very thoroughly educated in knife materials and construction, it's easy to get overwhelmed with technical information coming from numerous sources, while I've spent time on various other forums where these finer points rarely get mentioned. There are a lot of outdoor enthusiasts who couldn't tell you what steel their favorite knife is made out of, identify the type of grind, or even remember the brand without actually looking at the knife. They find something that works without obsessing over details. Then there are those who buy whatever looks cool.

The knives I've used for actual work haven't been made of amazing steel - usually 420HC, 440C or 8Cr13Mov - and only a couple actually failed under use. They were thrown away because I'm not going to put myself in the ER because I used a knife proven to be untrustworthy. Those that don't hold an edge well get relegated to light use and those that prove to be durable are the ones I trust, regardless of materials, brand or country of origin. It's worth it to "field test" a knife under normal working conditions before trusting it to do real work.
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I agree with you in that i think it's these people dishing out all the marketing and hype that leads us to believe in their OVERdesigned products that we just dont need. It's ironic that it's these same people i think should know that knives dont need to be designed like sharpened pry bars in order to work beautifully. In fact, its the blade height (distance between spine and cutting edge) that matters most i think. In terms of engineering stress analysis, a blade's critical stress is the bending stress experienced by the points just after the handle both on the spine and directly opposite that under the blade. As long as you are not prying, all normally designed knives will take that stress. That is of course my engineering estimate. I started this thread to gather real data regarding people who have actually had thinner knives fail on them. So far so good and no bad news yet! Thanks for your reply.
 
Twindog said:
You might consider a Spyderco mule. You can get it in a lot of different steels, and the blade geometry is right where you want to be. My K390 mule is 3.5 inches long, with a tang thickness at the handle of 0.114, but there is a strong, even distal taper and a full flat grind. At mid blade, the spine is just 0.09 inches thick.

People underestimate the geometry of the mule. It is really a great knife, and Spyderco does a great job with its heat treat.
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any idea where i could get one right now? they seem discontinued
 
The_KaramVit said:
any idea where i could get one right now? they seem discontinued
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Spyderco releases mules in new steels on a regular basis. They often come up for sale on Bladeforums. There are quite a few in different steels for sale on Ebay, with prices all over the board.
 
The_KaramVit said:
Wanted to get some thoughts on this. I've been interested in lightweight fixed blades such as CRKT Obake and Cold Steel Spike as i do not want to spend so much for an outdoor/camp knife. The most extreme use for these blades would probably be light batoning of tree branches. Typical, heavier outdoor blades (examples being Becker BK14, ESEE RC3, BRK Bravo Necker 2) deemed fit for outdoor use are about 0.14-0.17in thick. Typically greater than .125, in general.

The lightweight blades i've listed are 0.12-0.13 and have slimmer profiles. I've seen thinner blades being batoned with and still am puzzled why people do not think a slim, lightweight blade cannot make it in the outdoors. I will reference Mike Gavko and his 0.09in. fixed blades which he designed and are capable of splitting wood.

I'm basically looking for someone to tell me something i do not know regarding these blades and tell me why they are not popular as outdoor knives. I am seriously considering carrying a CS Tokyo Spike (Nice Scandi grind) or a CRKT Obake (good length and weight). I feel like they can both help me in a situation of defending my life as well as batoning tree branches but am not certain anymore due to the general consensus. Also let me know of some similar alternatives!
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The Mike Gavko reference is painfully hard to stay away from. (I tried) How long has been making knives for again?

It's very relevant.

I can baton a Delica, and it might survive for a while....

Start with users. Guys who have been out there using all kinds of knives in real world situations for a long time, and who have nothing to gain from a recommendation.

That's a good place find your answer.

I will get banned for posting this, but I like Paul, I like the Philosophy behind the design of this knife, and this is a good start:

http://edcforums.com/threads/an-ope...r-and-ontario-knives-re-blackbird-sk5.101472/
 
The Ontario SK5 Blackbird has a 5" blade, a little longer than you wanted, but it's a general camp type knife. It's .125" thick 154CM blade with a spear point. Not sure what your budget is but I would recommend that knife for your needs.
 
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hey guys! thought id give an update and share my conclusion to this story

I purchased a Bill Moran Drop Point Fixed Blade by Spyderco. Really excited about it. After some use with this, i'll really know what is or is not enough to survival use. If you guys dont already know, the blade has a rat tail tang. This blade gets A LOT of hate for the fact that it isnt a full tang but i say let them be. I want to believe that this will be enough for hiking use. The most extreme case would be firemaking by cutting thin tree branches of about 1 inch diameter maximum. Also it has a good sheath.

Share if your Bill Moran has exhibited signs of being just awesome!
 
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