What is the difference between the Keris and Kris?

T

Tisloran

Joined
Aug 15, 2001
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I have seen the middle eastern wavy dagger (sometime straight) called Keris and sometimes called Kris. What is the difference between them? Is this just an instance of different names for the same thing or is it somethign else? Feedback is appreciated, thanks.
 
Depends who you talk to. They are often used for the same weapon and sometimes not. However generally many collectors use the term keris to cover Indonesian/Malay versions while the term kris is often used to describe the Moro version. However its a matter of personal taste. You could also start using the actual native names and break down into kalis lanti, kalis tulid, kalis seko, kalis taluseko, lanti, sundang, etc... however in general kris for Moro kris, and keris for Malay/Indonesian keris
 
Hello
Is my guess that the word keris, like khukuri, would sound vey strange if read as it is spelled in their original language, and then the sound is adapted and wrote as talked in English.
This is just a theory, though, but sounds quite logic, doesn't it?

By the way, Federico, I miss the time I lived in St. Paul. Is everything as calm over there as it used to be be in 1991?
 
Actually from what Ive gathered your right on with your guess. Only ironic thing being that these words have now asserted themselves into the native cultures with force, and as old traditions die out they gain force within the communities.

Hmm how was St. Paul in 1991? Only been living in Minneapolis for 5 years now so my rememberances of the area is vague. Born and raised in Rochester MN. However the Cities are doing well, despite the heat wave causing all sorts of crasiness. That has died down thankfully with the cooling in temps both atmospherically and socially.
 
I agree with Federico: "kris" is usually used for the Moro version and "keris" is usually used for the Indonesian/Malay version, although sometimes they're interchanged.

I don't know how it was pronounced originally, but it's interesting to point out that "keris" doesn't appear in any English dictionary that I've seen. "Kris" shows up in many English dictionaries, and "creese" seems to be the older English version of the word. It's not used much nowdays, but "creese" shows up frequently in older dictionaries and I've seen it used in older English texts. (I think Sir Burton used the term "creese", for example, but I'm too lazy to search for references now.)
 
In Indonesian language, "e" can be pronounced in three ways depending on words where it's used. Like, strong "e" in "elephant", weak "e" in "cadet", and silent e in "triple". A keris is pronounced just same as kris.
So I've heard when I bought a "keris" in Indonesia four years ago.
 
The original reason keris wont appear in some dictionaries is because the wrong term has been used for so long. I have some old articles lying around and it explains the whole creese to kris thing. Just gotta clean a bit to find them. Actually on the EEWRS in the thread what constitutes a good keris they have or were adressing this issue. Kinda like the whole scimitar thing. Bad understanding leads to bad translation leads to wrong term. Unfortunately colonization/globalization, and the decrease in native peoples, and the slow loss of traditional customs, are making the actual terms harder to find.
 
Originally posted by Federico
However generally many collectors use the term keris to cover Indonesian/Malay versions while the term kris is often used to describe the Moro version.
Click to expand...

Odd that, coz in this part of the world (Singapore) the word Kris is used a lot with reference to the knives... again as someone noted, the pronunciation is the same... with the "e" in keris being silent... making it sound like "kris"... however it's spelt "kris" in most local and malaysian literature. I have seen it spelt as "keris" in some older indoesian references... but "kris" is more common.
 
The whole thing is a matter of choice. I use it because I have both Indo/Malay keris and Moro kris, and its a little easier to differentiate. When pronounced itll sound the same, but when written its a little less confusing if youre speaking about both weapons. Ive seen many people flip between the two, some from here some from even Indonesia. Its just a matter of taste. There really is no set in stone differention, just what a person is used to. Though one reason for the split could be Robert Cato's book Moro swords (a book alota collectors have), where he makes the distinction, but even then he states its for the purpose of the book in which he discusses both to a certain extent. Its like the difference between tomato and tomatoe.
 
Is there a difference between Moro and Indonesian Keris'? I know I've seen some straight and some with odd numbers of waves ranging from 5 to 17 waves, I think. I've seen 2 different handle shapes as well. Can one tell a Moro "Kris" from an Indonesian "Keris"?
Btw, I am interested in getting an inexpensive Keris. Preferably 12" 14" blade with 7-13 waves, either handle style. Scabbard is not a requirement. Heres the catch, I want one in the $75 price range. Kris Cutlery/Sandata is currently out of any of their "economy" Keris. Is there another source for less ornate, yet still authentic Keris?
 
The Filipino "kris" and the Indonesian "keris" are very different. I'm sure Federico could give a good, detailed explanation of the differences. Basically though, the kris is larger and more robust. The kris and keris are really in two separate classes of weapons: the keris is more of a dagger while the kris is a sword.

You can find new keris on ebay for as low as $75 or so. (One nice thing about using the word "keris" is that you don't have to wade through all the search results that turn up Kris Kristofferson items! :) ) Antique ones start at around $150.
 
The only thing Ill add is that Moro kris are meant primarily for cutting while Indo keris are meant primarily for thrusting. There are many more differences, but its generally easy to tell the difference. Its figuring out the regional differences that gets hard, not to mention getting good dates for pieces. Heres a pic of some three Moro kris, and one Indo keris. The Indo piece is on top.
kris.jpg
 
I agree with Fredrico you can find a lot of answers.Imho they are
two variants of spelling.When I deal or talk to my East Asian
ascociates I usually use Keris which seems to be more acceptable.
Kris is the slightly westernized spelling.These are the only blades
in my collecting obsession that I would not actually use.They are
more artwork and cultural mythology but you will get hooked on the
real thing quickly.
 
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