What is the finest carbide steel you know?

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Jan 31, 2015
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I'm just curious. The finest I have heard of is o1 shirogami 13c26 12c27 and 51200. Do you know what the finest carbide sized steel is out of this list? And if you know of a steel that has a finer carbide size please tell!

Thanks, nathan akins


P.s. Tell the avg carbide size too!
 
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Carbide size is not fixed with steel type and can be controlled by heat treatment to various degrees, depending on steel. 1080, 1075, 5160, and others have no primary carbides.
 
Carbide size is not fixed with steel type and can be controlled by heat treatment to various degrees, depending on steel. 1080, 1075, 5160, and others have no primary carbides.

Then why do steels have avg carbide sizes like 3um and .2 um? Is that the avg primary carbide size?
 
Powder steels by virtue of their processing tend to have smaller carbides and a finer grain structure than conventionally smelted steels.
 
Carbide size is not fixed with steel type and can be controlled by heat treatment to various degrees, depending on steel. 1080, 1075, 5160, and others have no primary carbides.

Then why do steels have avg carbide sizes like 3um and .2 um? Is that the avg primary carbide size?

Nathan, Please give an example. Please point to an alloy tech data sheet so that we can see the alloy in question. PM steels control the carbide size as part of the processing, so you can have an average size. Melt steels are more variable. And as ME pointed out, some don't have large carbides at all.
 
I don't feel like looking it up. Does, say 12c27 have much in the way of carbides at all? There is grain structure and there are carbides.
 
Nathan, Please give an example. Please point to an alloy tech data sheet so that we can see the alloy in question. PM steels control the carbide size as part of the processing, so you can have an average size. Melt steels are more variable. And as ME pointed out, some don't have large carbides at all.

ohhhh, i see thank you.
 
I don't feel like looking it up. Does, say 12c27 have much in the way of carbides at all? There is grain structure and there are carbides.

Blessings upon you for saying it before I did.

The sizes given are usually given for standard heat treatments or ones that are specifically trying to reduce carbide size, or for PM steels, which is more how the steel is made than how it's heat treated. If you want the finest carbide size possible, you need to use a steel with relatively low carbon content, and you'll likely have little to no carbide at all.

Something to keep in mind when discussing stuff like this is that steels have more carbide in them when they are annealed than when they are hardened. That sounds bass-ackwards I know, but that's the way it works. For example, 1095 has about 15% carbide in the annealed condition. When hardened, it drops down to around 3-5% depending on how it was heat treated. When heat treating simpler, low alloy steels, one has a great deal of control over the carbide size. More complicated steels have carbides that cannot be as easily controlled. This is why there are no CPM versions of 1095 and 5160.

CPM steels generally have carbide sizes in the range of 4-8 microns. These are kind of fixed, as the temperatures needed to reduce the carbide size are detrimental to other things, like grain size. In simpler steels like 10xx series, the temperatures are not as high and negative effects can be dealt with easier. Simpler plain carbon and low alloy steels (10xx, O1, 52100, etc.) will have smaller carbides than the CPM steels, generally 1 micron or less. AEB-L, 13C26, 420HC, 425M and maybe 12C27 are in the same category. 12C27 can be heat treated with either very small or no carbides. The others can too, but generally are left with some carbides for wear, where 12C27 is more concerned with corrosion and other things.

There has been a lot of research over the years in how to reduce carbide size in various alloys. If you're willing to do some intricate heat treating, it's pretty complicated/interesting, but you can get extremely fine carbides far outside typical sizes for standard heat treatments.

Now, I would be thinking "what non-standard treatments do people do?" Look around in Shop Talk for all kinds of home expedient heat treatments, particularly in older threads.
 
The first question should be what carbides are important for what you intend to do with the knife. If you're looking for a knife with a lot of wear resistance, for example, you're going to want a lot of wear-resistant carbides in that steel.

The beauty of powder steels over ingot steels is that you can get a much higher load of wear-resistant carbides in the steel and still have a workable blade. The powder process, by making the carbides smaller and better distributed (another key attribute) than in the same ingot alloy, can carry a higher load of carbides.

But knife steels are more complex than they would appear. Low-alloy steels like 1095 or 1075 have been used for years, and have excellent applications. But if you want a tougher blade, 3V powder steel is going to work better for you. If you want a super wear-resistance blade, K390 or S110V are going to be much better.

If you need a tough stainless, Elmax is going to be about as good as you will find. If you need a stainless that holds an edge for a long time, it will be hard to beat S110V. If you need a stainless steel with a nice balance between toughness and wear resistance, M390 will fill the bill.

If you need a razor steel, maybe you don't need much in the way of carbides at all, just a really fine grain structure.

Carbide size, independent of what you need from the steel, isn't a question that usually comes up for the typical knife steel.
 
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