What is the oldest production slip joint pattern?

Joe58

Joe58

Joined
Nov 11, 2002
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Reading through the EZ Open thread that was started, I really enjoyed some of the nice examples that were posted.

It made me wonder, what would be the oldest (first?) production patterns.

I'm sure there were many different slip joints produced in the village shops, or by the blacksmith for use just for the local folks near by.

But I don't know which company was the earliest production operation with the intent of national or global sales. And what patterns were first offered by them.
 
Those would be the early European patterns exported to America before cutleries were established here. Simple jacks for the mass market and more elaborate gentlemen's knives and waldemars (watch chain fob knives) for the well to do. Mostly England and Germany (Austria/Hungary/Czechoslovakia/Bohemia). At least that is my understanding. A few knives from Colonial America still exist as examples. George Washington's knife is but one. IIRC, blacksmiths were not pocket knife makers. That is more myth than fact. A glimpse of early patterns can be seen in the recovered contents of the sunken steamboat Arabia, holed by a sawyer and sunk in the Missouri River in September, 1856.

http://1856.com/

Quickly sealed in a mud and silt tomb with most cargo intact, it was excavated in a farmer's field in 1988, a virtual time capsule of cutlery commerce.


33k7orn.png
 
I plan to go see this museum sometime on one of my upcoming road trips. This is a fascinating story. I can see Barlows, Wharnie blades, classic 2-bladed jacks in ebony. Bone, stag, etc. Absolutely amazing.
 
I love the look of that mud-stained stag. Thank you for sharing that, codger. I hadn't heard of the sunken steamboat story before.
 
Wow Codger! I think I had heard of the Arabia, but wasn't aware of the story and the site. Looks like most of that was done privately. Really cool stuff.
 
Thanks for sharing that great pic Codger! I guess I didn't have an idea that the folding knife pattern variety such as those shown was that diverse so early for production sales. I knew that fixed blade knives of all types existed but that would be something to come across a find like that.

Sweet stuff....
 
The English and Bohemian folding knife industry was established a century or more before cutlers came to this country. First folders? I've seen Roman relics. But really, the trove found on the Arabia is a wonderful study of knives available here in the mid 19th century. I would be interested in knowing what marks were cataloged on those knives! I bet most if not all were imported. What was the first established pocket knife cutlery here anyway? I see Thomaston est. 1849. Birmingham c. 1849. Most marks before and after were merchant marks, many not marked with origin until circa 1890 or so.
 
That stained stag and bone would be partly on the way towards fossilized in quality, no?
 
Production knives predate the Arabia collection by over 100 years. IMHO, the most notable thing about the arabia knives is how much they are like current patterns, except for the excellence of the stag and the fitting of the stag. Current producers cannot even begin to compare. There are about 15 arabia knives at the KS museum of history in Topeka as well.
 
I find it interesting that there are so many congress-type patterns. Everytime the pattern comes up it seems there is some skepticism as to how old or how American it really is. Same is true of wharncliffe type blades, which seem well represented there. A number of lambsfoot types, which is no surprise.

The swell-end jack seems the dominant style, which again is not really surprising, but without GEC leading the pack on old time traditionals, I think we would find them a bit more foreign looking.
 
Knives are tools, and would have followed technology. The chances of a congress showing up before desk clerk and accounting work becoming trades is unlikely in my opinion. A folding knife was probably for general work and animal care when they first came into use by common folks. I would guess the history of each pattern, blade, or tool would follow along the same way.
 
600-500 BC, early Iron Age. There are examples of folding knives dating to this period. One would have to assume that as soon as one man figured it out other men would want it. It is called capitalism! The foundation of all that is good, and bad, of life as we know it. I contend once that man made another for trade, barter, etc. that constitutes production. All of this in my humble base of beliefs.
 
I'm going to go get my buddy's backhoe and start digging the back yard up near my creek, I'm a mile from the Delaware river maybe a boat sank here, never mind, the wife's says if I'm gonna go dig in the yard I need to be digging a garden. :(

Thanks for the pics that was an awesome find.
 
Wow, this has been a very interesting read. Thanks Joe for asking and a special thanks to Codger and everyone else for the pictures and information.
Happy Easter,
Bob
 
jon_slider said:
thanks, can you post some pictures?

and btw, we dont allow gun posts in Traditionals, so I hope we will also be spared the Gun ads, like these, and others. ALL of these guns are from the first post in this thread :barf:

Happy Easter!
Click to expand...

I started this thread and I've never posted anything like that ever in any post, so I'm not sure where you got them from, as mine was the first post. The only post I see the gun ads are in your post. I would think a mod would stop that if things like that started up. Hopefully.
 
Every time I see that old Arabia photo, I'm struck by a couple of things.

One, I always thought of the congress as a southern planters knife. Or at least a southern agriculture type of knife. To see that they were being shipped west in the pre-civil war era is surprising to me. I guess I don't hunk of the upper Missouri region to be congress territory as far as knife sales.

The other is, it seems the wharncliffe or sheepsfoot in a single large folder pattern was popular also. Gives a heck of a lot or credibility to the wharnie as a good all around pocket knife. If it was good enough for the homestead and frontier folks of the upper Missouri region, it must have done the job well.

And finally, who could imagine the old carbon steel and bone pocket knives staying buried for over a century, and yet they didn't rust away. In fact, some of those knives look like I could take some 0000 steel wool and oil and clean them up a bit and put them to work today.
 
Rust is oxidation and for something to rust, it has to get oxygen. I believe these were entombed in mud and silt pretty quickly, sealing away oxygen and eventually water. If you look at the museum site, they even have intact clothing and shoes.

It is my impression that Americans, including Northerners and Southerners, moving West in the early to mid 1800's took their preferences in goods, including knives, with them. And of course cutlers overseas would have learned rather quickly what patterns of knives Americans preferred and produced those for export over any other traditional European preferred knives. As American cutleries evolved they adapted old patterns and created new ones, European competetors were not far behind in producing those same patterns to sell to the growing American markets.

This is how Adolph Kastor built his cutlery empire, actually shipping sample rolls of American produced knives to his brother in Germany to be reproduced at a lower pricepoint. At least this is how this old Codger understands this knife history.
 
jon_slider said:
Gun ads show in your post because I have not paid for a gold membership, which you have, so you dont see them, but, yup, thats where I got them.

Here are a couple more I just got from the first post, I know youre not posting them, BF is hosting them as Advertisemets.
...snip...[/QUOTE]

Yep, and paying members don't see them until you repost them. Server expenses for this site are tremendous and the owner is using this as a revenue generating device in lieu of making the forums available to only paying members.
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I don't see any gun ads, and I'm just a registered person, which begs the question, what's with this irrational obsession, or is it fear, with guns? Had you not posted those fotos of gun ads, I would never have had to be subjected to or exposed to firearms; what gives?:thumbdn:
 
I have no control over the advertising. I do, however, have control over what is posted in this sub forum. If you have problems with the ads, or types of ads, you have a few choices. Pay for a membership, go somewhere else or complain to the management here; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...upport-General-Q-amp-A-Site-Feedback-amp-More. Some posts were moved offline.

Just so you know. I don't hate guns. I own some. There's a place for them but not in this forum dedicated to knives, and in particular traditional knives.
 
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