What is the purpose of a sub-hilt?

Patrice Lemée

Patrice Lemée

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Aug 13, 2002
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Visually I love sub-hilts but is this all they are, a visual thing? I am tempted to add some in my designs from time to time and knowing the real purpose would help me design a size/shape that would be useful as well as visually pleasing.

I just don't see the use except “maybe” for better weapon retention as this is used mostly on fighters. Of course even if it was just about the visuals, it does give the knife a “mean” look which for a fighter could be seen as a deterrent and make the adversary retreat before the fight even starts.

As you see I am clueless about this and would appreciate any ideas you have.
 
Klingons love them.

I never saw any reason besides the look for a sub-hilt on a knife. On swords it was a gripping feature to protect the finger that was wrapped around the guard.
I can see how a sub-hilt would prevent things like reversed grip and some other gripping techniques, but can't see how it would greatly increase anything on a knif.

Of the fighting knives I have make for special orders - by people who use and teach knife fighting - I never had an order for one.
 
You don't see them on historical designs, which I take as an indicator of their usefulness. Stacy's comment about the finger looped over the guard on swords is correct for rapiers, some cut and thrust swords, and fencing swords, but the additional appendages of the hilt were usually in front of the quillons, not behind. The configuration that is seen on modern knives has no historical provenance that I am aware of.
 
I think that a well-executed subhilt is a work of art and makes an beautiful knife a jaw-dropper. It is also the mark of a good smith if they can pull one off that works well, IMO. Not the only mark, but one.
 
I try to never say "never", but I've yet to be asked to make one and haven't felt the urge. They do look nice when they're well-done.
 
I thought it served the purpose of aiding in withdrawing the knife from someplace (ahem) that it had been thrust. Which is why we see them on figting knives, not on camp knives. I don't believe it is a historical design at all - I have often heard Bob Loveless credited as the father of the contemporary subhilt, but don't claim to know if this is so. If he didn't "invent" the design, he certainly popularized it within the custom context.

When well-executed, I find it a visually appealing design element that most certainly demonstrates the skill of the maker. It's not just a matter of fitment, but of ergonomic integration with the handle as a whole. Three of my favourite makers of this style are David Broadwell, Lin Rhea and Russ Andrews. Tad Lynch has recently come up with a novel take on the design that I am really looking forward to cheching out in person one day soon.

Roger
 
It's my impression that it helps you pull back with your fingers for a snap, flicking the blade downwards for a slashing cut.


I thought that's what "snap cut" was all about.


Maybe a good question for Prac TAc where all the ones with training hang out.
 
Personally I like the look of them, especially this Ankrom piece. I am going to build one inspired by it.
I think that the purpose is to have something other than just the guard to keep your fingers from moving around as much. It would add weight, balance and keep the knife from slipping out of your hand.
 
I am glad to hear you guys say it is is mostly a visual thing. Leaves more room to be creative about it. I can't say I like the really big ones but to me, something more subdued can look very nice.

Roger, I saw Tad's subhilt, a real beauty and a great example of outside the box thinking. When you get Coop, who has handled and shot about a zillion knives, to say something like “I thought I had seen everything”, I think you can honestly say it's an innovative design.

Thanks for your input everyone.
 
My guess is that you have to think backwards.
They were seen more and more after the four-finger-groove handles disappeared. The back two groves evolved out and just the one remained for extra grip.
(but limiting the grip posibilities)
All this is just my guess.
 
I've been interested in fighting knives more than any other all my life. Having played with a few, and read about them, and watched videos etc I could never say I'd want one for an actual fighting knife.(no, I've never been in a knife fight.)...The couple short lessons I had focused on a reverse grip that'd be awkward with a sub-hilt.
But, Tad Lynch's sub-hilt was AWESOME!!!!

Sub-hilt's that are properly spaced and sized can add an extremely attractive feature in my opinion.

Besides Patrice, you know you WANT to do one. Take down sub-hilt, here we come! With a persian style blade?
 
The first subhilt I ever saw was in a 1976 Guns & Ammo Annual. It was a beautiful Loveless Deleware Maid and is still one of the nicest knives I have ever seen. I have liked subhilts ever since. I have not noticed the subhilt interfering with any grip I have tried, reverse , sabre, modified sabre or hatchet. When ordering a second subhilt knife from a well known maker, I requested the handle 3/4 of an inch longer. He asked me if I had overly large hands and required the longer handle for that reason,to which i replied, how do you grip this style knife. He informed me that the knife was designed for the reverse grip and he had not given any other type grip much thought, pertaining to this style of knife. I respectfully suggested he roll the knife in his hand to a sabre or modified sabre and tell me how it felt. His response was "well I'll be, that feels pretty darned good too". When using the any of the sabre grips, the subhilt provides another angle of tension on the knife and keeps the knife more secure when performing snap cuts. Any grip material i am familar with gets slippery when wet and the subhilt aids in knife retention. In closing, the subhilt in my humble opnion, attractive and practical.
 
The martial view, I believe is the ability to maintain one's grip on the knife. With the subhilt tucked neatly between two fingers it would be hard to dislodge the knife during a knife fight.

Fred
 
To me it looks like a modified, or open, ring-guard, which I know of one example circa 1860s American made bowie.

Micheal Price did a double ring guard , 1800s San Francisco, being said that he was a boxer, there is one with a rather short ivory handle to be held as a push dagger for a punch type stab.
 
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