What is your indication to switch stones/move up?

OhioApexing

OhioApexing

Sharpener
Joined
Apr 17, 2018
Messages
235
I’ve decided to reheat this discussion after getting two different opinions from two people who are largely seen as experts in this community.

One forms a full burr on every stone, then tries to remove the burr formed on that stone by alternating edge-leading strokes on each side until it is either gone or negligibly present. Then moves to the next stone and repeats the process until strops, where he focuses on removing the final burr entirely.

The other disregards the burr after apexing on the first stone. From there, he looks to the elimination of scratch patterns from the previous stone. Once all of the scratch patterns on the each bevel are entirely that of the stone he is working with, he moves on to the next.

Your thoughts?
 
what are your goals? if you are looking for the picture perfect reflective polished edge, you'll need (want) to remove all the scratch pattern from the previous stone

but that is not required for simply being sharp
 
l1ranger said:
what are your goals? if you are looking for the picture perfect reflective polished edge, you'll need (want) to remove all the scratch pattern from the previous stone

but that is not required for simply being sharp
Click to expand...

For me, a bit of both. But sharpness, primarily. I believe the first viewpoint mentioned above is correct with that goal. I don’t really see the point in making an edge pretty if it isn’t sharp and stable.
 
My focus is on the bur being formed in the stages of sharpening. My focus is there because it lets me know when to stop or change sides. If my goal is to remove all scratches from the last stone, I still need to pay attention to the bur so Im not over sharpening one side too much. I would continuously alternate sides until the scratch pattern is smoothed out, raising a bur on each side, each time and removing it.
 
agreed there is little use in a shiny dull edge.

I think what you'll find, as I did, is that there is more than one correct way to skin this cat.

excepting some gifts, all my knives get used - some daily, some rarely, but they are there to use. if I've got the time and inclination, I'll run it through the paces to get a pretty edge on it. when doing this, after the initial burr - i dont continue to check for the burr - i remove the scratches and assuming there is atleast somewhat of a burr - use some light edge trailing strokes before moving on to the next stone.

during a more utilitarian sharpening - I'll form and remove a burr at the coarsest grit - then refine the edge with progressive grits trying not to form a burr - throw in a final stropping to knock off any remnants of a burr
 
Once you have fully apex'ed and the scratch pattern from the previous grit has been removed with the current stone. Then move to the next.

Note .. With the burr removed you should be able to slice paper after the first stone that you apex with. Keep the burr small as possible.
 
Basedlarrydavid said:
The other disregards the burr after apexing on the first stone. From there, he looks to the elimination of scratch patterns from the previous stone.
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Totally this ^^^
With good steel, meaning any thing from N690 to M4, I find I can produce the faintest faintest bur all along the edge, maybe then go a few strokes on each side after that alternating sides but with very light preasure then go to the next stone.

Now I prefer and use almost exclusively polished edges (Shapton Glass 4,000 at a minimum and up to Shapton Pro 8,000) I do a lot of push cutting and trimming so I like polished edges. My progression is from 220, 500, 1000 and 4,000 give or take a stone on each end of that.

I don't even pay that much attention to the scratch patern. From the second stone onward I just know how many strokes I need to do for a given knife size and just brainlessly go through the motions. I'm not going for a flawless mirror but I just know from lots of sharpening how many strokes I need to do to refine / remove the scratch pattern from the previous stone. I tend to over do it slightly so there won't be much if any scratches left from the previous stone. For example I start out on the second stone doing back and forth strokes in a small area of an inch and do four or five strokes then blending that into the next inch or so four or five strokes and continue down the edge like that then flip the knife and repeat.

Next, using the same stone I will do the same but with just edge trailing strokes and lift to return. Depending on the sharpening bevel width I may only go three strokes in that area but double the amount of edge covered in those strokes and work down the edge. Flip the knife then go say two strokes in an area but double the amount of edge covered etc until I do only one stroke per side for up to a four inch blade. I might take a baby partial stroke near the tip if I run out of stone on the first stroke. Then change stones.

Depending on the steel I may wash off the stone and condition it often while using it or for softer steel I may let the stone load up and merely rinse it but not condition it. Conditioning can range from a quick scrub with a Nagura stone or a pass or two on a diamond plate.

I use an Edge Pro or other sharpening jig.
When I have gone through the stones listed, for the regular number of strokes AND I AM WORKING ON REALLY GOOD STEEL . . . i can count on two things happening :
  1. The miniscule bur takes care of its self and disapears.
  2. The freekin' edge will be hair whittling.

Strop ?
What is this strop you speak of ?
What would I gain from that ?
:cool: :) :cool:
 
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Chris "Anagarika" said:
If the bevel is flush, removing all previous stone scratches will result in burr. So it basically the same, IMHO.
Click to expand...
If one were working only one side of a blade this might be true but we have two flat planes intersecting at a line, the apex. The term "line" I use in the strict sense and so by definition has no thickness. With progressively finer abrasive the bur tends to get thinner and thinner . . . most notably when sharpening seriously well heat treated steel that happens to lack those nasty ingredients that make it "stainless".

There is a point in the refining where the bur begins to fall off onto the stone because it's attachment to the edge is too thin and weak. A bit more refining after that repairs the break point (line) and the edge goes from shave sharp to whittling YET is a durable edge because it lacks the foily bur that some people allow themselves which also whittles hair but lacks durability.

Yes in lesser steel, ESPECIALLY stainless steel that bur hangs on and refuses to abrade until it is gone partly because the steel is so soft and ductile it just keeps "extruding" / burnishing / flowing into a never ending bur.

The stainless steel exception in my experience has been N690. At least the N690 in my Pattada. :thumbsup:
 
After the first stone (low grit) I confirm that the edge is sharp all along the edge, usually by testing it on my fingernail, sometimes on paper. This tells me that I've reached the apex. From there I go to finer stones, and check for sharpness and polishing of the edge. Depending on how polished I want the edge to be, I will continue these steps with finer stones and finally some stropping.

At no point do I look for a burr, but I do some burr removal steps at each grit (alternating strokes). If the edge doesn't pass my fingernail test, I know I'm not there yet.
 
Wowbagger Wowbagger

Agree, burr depends on steel, the HT and the abrasive nature. I’m just saying that removing all scratches means apexing and it usually resulting in burr (depends on the three factors earlier).
 
I'm new to using a guided system (Wicked Edge). I have the following: 200/600 diamond, 800/1000 diamond, 1200/1600 ceramic, 5/3.5 micron strops. I have sharpened just a few knives now, working on cleaning up (smoothing out) the stones and getting the technique. I have a 10X and 30X jeweler's loupe, so I can see the edge and scratch pattern progression.

I notice the following:

Better steels seem to form finer burrs.

I cannot really feel any burr after the second (600 grit) stone, therefore I have quit feeling for it after the 600 grit stone, and have started focusing on scratch pattern removal with each progressive stone.

I am more aware of the effect of the direction of the stroke. At first, I was trying strokes from heel to tip, with one long pass of the stone. This resulted in very long, lengthwise scratches along the edge. I have recently tried much more "vertical" strokes, from spine to edge, maybe progressing 1/2 the width of the stone with each pass (is this more of a scrubbing motion?). I have not yet determined if the direction of the stroke makes a difference in the quality or amount of burr for the 200 and 600 grit stones. My operating theory is that "vertical" strokes will have less long filaments of a burr. Therefore, in my mind, a proper burr is formed with vertical strokes. No idea if this is true or not.

I find that alternating stroke direction from one stone to the next seems to make it easier to determine if the scratch pattern has been removed from the previous stone. So, I am currently implementing a technique where I work the burr on the first two stones with vertical strokes. Then I switch to long heel-to-tip strokes with the next two stones. I finish with vertical strokes with the ceramic stones. (I follow with the strops only at a slightly more acute angle just for polishing the bevel, not refining the actual edge.)

Again, no idea if any of this sequence is materially different, but it's what I'm doing, and my mind has been blown by the quality of the edges I'm producing.
 
I'm more or less in that first camp; I form a burr on each stone. Mainly, because it's what I know, and it gives me the confidence I'm fully apexing. This is how I've been sharpening for forty odd years. That said, I also had never had to sharpen the likes of ZDP189.

I point out this steel in particular as it seems to not like forming much of a burr at all and it messes me up. I either can't get it up or it just flops over immediately. The burr I mean, sheesh. I've yet to master it but I'm learning that I need to adjust my approach.

Finer grained steels (mainly powder) might give a finer burr but so far, in my experience, I can still feel it raising.

Then there's the deep-in-the-weeds discussions around stressed edges and such. Folks who go down those paths tend to be pretty anti-burr.

So, like so many things in sharpening, my firm answer is, it depends. As long as you're sharp off of every stone, then for the most part, you're good to go. One very common mistake people make, is moving up in grits believing the finer grits will give them a better edge when they haven't yet properly apexed on the lower grits.
 
I belong to the form an apex on the coarsest stone and than just remove the scratch pattern while moving up the grits.
 
I form a burr on the coarse stone and remove it more or less 100%.
Every subsequent stone gets a cursory burr removal up to the final strop or microbevel.

C Chris "Anagarika" spot on, every step will form a burr anyway, and that burr prevents the best possible edge at a given step. This isn't too terribly important until the last step tho, esp if one uses a microbevel or a hard strop as the finishing step. As a rule I wipe it off to where I cannot feel it or see with a quick visual inspection.
 
For me, I only raise the burr with my coarsest stone in the progression. After the burr is removed (lately I have been using high angle super light passes and that works very well), I'll go to the next stone(s) for a bit of refinement, no intention of raising a burr. My technique is always the same, heel to tip, flip, heel to tip. Then tip to heel, flip, tip to heel. It's always one stroke, flip, one stroke, flip, one stroke, etc. I think this helps to minimize the burr formation on the stones where you're not trying to raise a burr, but rather just refine the edge. And I like to switch from heel/tip to tip/heel as well, crossing the scratch pattern. When you look at the edge under magnification, it isn't IIIIII, or \\\\\\, but rather XXXXXX.
 
Forgive me if this is stupid ok? If it takes 20 strokes on one side to form a burr, does the other side of the edge need 20 strokes to maintain a centered edge? If so, doesn’t that just move the burr to the other side?
 
mpgt12 said:
Forgive me if this is stupid ok? If it takes 20 strokes on one side to form a burr, does the other side of the edge need 20 strokes to maintain a centered edge? If so, doesn’t that just move the burr to the other side?
Click to expand...
Hi,
essentially yes
by counting passes and repeating the same amount on each side,
you maintain centering
and yes the burr should flip
before you cut it off

* yes I did hit post 10min too early
Code: 
reflective surface (maximum dull or cut/off apex)
     |
     V
   ----
  ///\\\       <--- metal that must be removed
 ////\\\\             to sharpen, to erase reflection
/////\\\\\            to raise burr, to make apex

So sharpening is removing metal from the sides
until there is no more flat at the apex, no more reflection
So you grind on the left side and you get
Code: 
  burr raised on one side,  basic sharp
    |
    V
     /
    /--
   //\\\       <--- right side metal that must be removed
  ///\\\\             to sharpen, to erase reflection
 ////\\\\\            to "flip" burr, to make apex
So you switch sides and grind on the right side and you get
Code: 
   burr raised on other side, almost fully sharp
    |
    V
    \
    /\
   //\\
  ///\\\
 ////\\\\
Now you do two times one pass per 35-45 degrees per side,
ultra light ( "ideally" under 1oz/~28grams),
followed by one to ten times one pass per side
at lower/original not 35-45 degrees per side angle,
to "erase" the influence of the high 35-45 angle
Code: 
    sharp edge, no burr left
     |
     V
 
    /\
   //\\
  ///\\\
 
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