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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
What kind of sword is this? Price on the sword?
- Thread starter dschade
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...MBERS-Please-read-this-WHAT-IS-MY-KNIFE-WORTH
Also, not even remotely enough information or level of detail in pics. Get yourself a Gold membership if you want to ask this question.
Also, not even remotely enough information or level of detail in pics. Get yourself a Gold membership if you want to ask this question.
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It looks like either an Ames Militia Officer sword or a replica of some sort. That pommel is typical of Ames swords.
Triton
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I concur that it is probably a fraternal sword from the Knights of Pythia, Columbus or any of various other fraternal organizations which may indeed have been made by Ames. As such the value is purely nominal, if you want hard values doing searches on ebay auctions should be enlightening.
horseclover
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This is indeed an 1840s/1850s militia officer's sword made by Ames of Chicopee Massachusetts. The etching is no doubt pretty hard to see but if you can post pictures of the etch, I can tell you which decade. At the base of the blade on one side will be a very faint mark that looks almost scratched in by a needle and if it ha an NP before Ames instead of Ames Mfg Co., then the NP (Nathan Peabody)will label it to his lifetime The etch patterns change aside from that though and can further narrow the time. These were popular right up into the American Civil War but faded after that. I have eight nco variations and one much like yours, minus its bone shell on the grip and the chain made in the 1850s. Six of my nco swords are definitely Ames, the others likely Horstmann.
Here are my centurion nco swords
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Some-American-Militia-Centurion-Pommel-Swords
Yes, some of the same nco types absolutely used by the Free Masons and others before the civil war and the Odd Fellows had a slew of the artillery gladius used for their own use (the 1832 artillery short sword). The Knights of Columbus swords are really a small variety and they do not use the Roman or knightly helmets but busts of Columbus or a flying eagle. Pythians have their own pommel look to them as well. There was a lot of variety in cheapness in many of the post American Civil War swords for fraternal use but some were quite costly at the time
A close look at the blade etch will show a spread eagle with an E Pluribus Unum banner in its beak. Above that, an arch of stars. That will be about mid blade. These particular blades were carried over from the 1832 general officer sword that some are going to call an 18th century smallsword
Here is my super budget tired example showing its wood grip core and sans chain. Less money than many spend on their latest pocket knife.
The 1850s etch will have a less artsy and almost mechanical looking spread eagle with its wing tips almost vertical while the earlier ones more "fluffy" and wider The grips are pretty much a veneer of ivory or bone. Some horn or sheet silver used as well. Peterson's "bible" from the 1950s, Hamilton's Ames history and the Medicus Collection book from Flayderman/Mowbray are really three primers all enthusiasts of American swords should have. Hamilton also more recently edited a large selection of fraternal swords that comprises the current best information for them but there are endless patterns still missing from it. Bezdek's books, ok but mostly compilations of other's work.
Looks like a nice sword. Condition is everything on these, as they are fairly common. A scabbard in good trim is worth a premium and hallf its street worth (rule of thumb).
Cheers
GC
Here are my centurion nco swords
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Some-American-Militia-Centurion-Pommel-Swords
Yes, some of the same nco types absolutely used by the Free Masons and others before the civil war and the Odd Fellows had a slew of the artillery gladius used for their own use (the 1832 artillery short sword). The Knights of Columbus swords are really a small variety and they do not use the Roman or knightly helmets but busts of Columbus or a flying eagle. Pythians have their own pommel look to them as well. There was a lot of variety in cheapness in many of the post American Civil War swords for fraternal use but some were quite costly at the time
A close look at the blade etch will show a spread eagle with an E Pluribus Unum banner in its beak. Above that, an arch of stars. That will be about mid blade. These particular blades were carried over from the 1832 general officer sword that some are going to call an 18th century smallsword
Here is my super budget tired example showing its wood grip core and sans chain. Less money than many spend on their latest pocket knife.
The 1850s etch will have a less artsy and almost mechanical looking spread eagle with its wing tips almost vertical while the earlier ones more "fluffy" and wider The grips are pretty much a veneer of ivory or bone. Some horn or sheet silver used as well. Peterson's "bible" from the 1950s, Hamilton's Ames history and the Medicus Collection book from Flayderman/Mowbray are really three primers all enthusiasts of American swords should have. Hamilton also more recently edited a large selection of fraternal swords that comprises the current best information for them but there are endless patterns still missing from it. Bezdek's books, ok but mostly compilations of other's work.
Looks like a nice sword. Condition is everything on these, as they are fairly common. A scabbard in good trim is worth a premium and hallf its street worth (rule of thumb).
Cheers
GC
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horseclover
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Here is a South Carolina fellow wearing one in his American Civil War years (photo enhanced and flipped rightways).
The Mexican war period saw a great deal of swords being made by Ames and from other suppliers. A lot of these swords from the deacades after that served both the original owners and subsequent generations.
Cheers
GC
The Mexican war period saw a great deal of swords being made by Ames and from other suppliers. A lot of these swords from the deacades after that served both the original owners and subsequent generations.
Cheers
GC
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horseclover
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Lt Colonel Charles B Norton at the headquarters of General Fitz-John Porter
An nco type headed for DC duties from the NY militia (from the old Time Life Civil War series)
Cheers
GC
too many files on too many drives but I have many more photos of the helmet heads Some quite Marvin the Martian like
An nco type headed for DC duties from the NY militia (from the old Time Life Civil War series)
Cheers
GC
too many files on too many drives but I have many more photos of the helmet heads Some quite Marvin the Martian like
horseclover
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A plate from Bezdek's (now out of print) {American Swords and Sword Makers. There are a couple of newer titles from him that also share these. You'll note top left the 1832 officers sword that has the identical blade, so these were a blade type used for three decades. Also note the Palm for a South Carolina sword, pre war and soon after the Mexican War (Many presentation swords to those that served).
Cheers
GC
Cheers
GC
horseclover
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I also stand to be corrected in that there is one more identified Knights of Columbus version that is a figure of a man with a helmet but surmounted by a prone lion. Black leather with wire a gold washed fittings. This is a pre 1900 sword, with the order beginning in 1882. All KOC swords will have a KoC somewhere on it and often crossed short swords. Hamilton also lists KoC "Helmet pommel swords of Sir Knights have silver (color) mounts and blck (ebonized) grips." Strangely though, he does not show them but just the four mentioned. It could be assumed that generic looking swords could be have substituted by some local branches as group buys. We see that in other fraternities quite often and a lot of the military association groups and generics kind of blend in similarity, suited to any group (there were hundreds of groups/ fraternities).
There was also a definite evolution from the roman helmet swords of the French First Empire to what are clearly more gothic medieval looking pommels. We see distinct changes and variations by the mid 19th century American market.
Even with all the books so far published, there is always more to learn and corrections that become apparent. I think all manner of swords are an ever lasting study.
Cheers
GC
There was also a definite evolution from the roman helmet swords of the French First Empire to what are clearly more gothic medieval looking pommels. We see distinct changes and variations by the mid 19th century American market.
Even with all the books so far published, there is always more to learn and corrections that become apparent. I think all manner of swords are an ever lasting study.
Cheers
GC
horseclover
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I could suggest opening up the book by Hamilton showing a number of handle material types for this type of militia sword but you might also take a closer look at the pictures shown so far. Looks like dirty bone to me. There were grips encased in silver sheet. There were black horn examples, bone, ivory, plated brass. It may still not be Ames at all and further pictures of the etch would show that (along with any fraternal connection, as found with the nco form and pre civil war 1832 artillery examples).
As far as I am concerned, the poster was a hit and run likely not to return once "helped out". As such I hate to waste my own time in posting a lot of pictures and writing the entire content of the book but might further suggest you may be mistaken in reading those views of the grip as metal. The poster could confirm that, certainly.
Odd they would not mention that if it were metal.
Note the crack and chipping in close observation. Both bone and ivory pick up color from whatever polishes it and natural light in photography would help. All that is shiny is not always cast metal. Again, these are not solid grips bored through for the tang. Some are truly empty shells with plugs of wood on each end, or like my example, missing an overlay of sheet metal.
At any rate, there is not any noted use of this officer variety for fraternal use, with others already mentioned as so. Any of the the other two patterns etched for fraternal use show the fraternal use.This is not to say that any sword may not have been etched or decorated for society work or have a society connection.
Neither specifically Masonic but both with Masonic imagery. The smallsword one of several given for service to king and country and the other simply a yeoman cavalry officer sword.
Cheers
Also a fwiw. I in no way claim to be an expert on Ames or fraternal swords but I do watch both fairly closely with more than 700 files in Ames folders and about 600 files of fraternal swords in a dedicated folder. The helmet heads in more than one folder, some in Ames files another 400 or so files in another dedicated folder of helmets and other closely related militia types. Within that folder are another 600 files that are not so specifically similar. Eagle pommel swords? More than 6,000 files, so you can see where other interests may be more important. Well more than 12,000 files between all swords, knives, axes, other weapons.
Then of course, are the books and my own collection of material swarf encompassing swords and weapons from the mid 18th century to date.
What do I know anyway?
As far as I am concerned, the poster was a hit and run likely not to return once "helped out". As such I hate to waste my own time in posting a lot of pictures and writing the entire content of the book but might further suggest you may be mistaken in reading those views of the grip as metal. The poster could confirm that, certainly.
Odd they would not mention that if it were metal.Note the crack and chipping in close observation. Both bone and ivory pick up color from whatever polishes it and natural light in photography would help. All that is shiny is not always cast metal. Again, these are not solid grips bored through for the tang. Some are truly empty shells with plugs of wood on each end, or like my example, missing an overlay of sheet metal.
At any rate, there is not any noted use of this officer variety for fraternal use, with others already mentioned as so. Any of the the other two patterns etched for fraternal use show the fraternal use.This is not to say that any sword may not have been etched or decorated for society work or have a society connection.
Neither specifically Masonic but both with Masonic imagery. The smallsword one of several given for service to king and country and the other simply a yeoman cavalry officer sword.
Cheers
Also a fwiw. I in no way claim to be an expert on Ames or fraternal swords but I do watch both fairly closely with more than 700 files in Ames folders and about 600 files of fraternal swords in a dedicated folder. The helmet heads in more than one folder, some in Ames files another 400 or so files in another dedicated folder of helmets and other closely related militia types. Within that folder are another 600 files that are not so specifically similar. Eagle pommel swords? More than 6,000 files, so you can see where other interests may be more important. Well more than 12,000 files between all swords, knives, axes, other weapons.
Then of course, are the books and my own collection of material swarf encompassing swords and weapons from the mid 18th century to date.
What do I know anyway?
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