What level does ZT harden their ELMAX and M390 to? What do you think of ZT M390?

hookahhabib

hookahhabib

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Feb 24, 2011
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It looks like I'll have an opportunity to pick up a ZT0562 or a ZT0562cf tomorrow...I love the design of the 0562 and would be happy with either a G10 or carbon fiber scale, but I am having trouble deciding between the ELMAX or the M390 option. I know M390 generally holds its edge longer than ELMAX, but I have not had any direct experience with ZT's M390. I have been quite happy and satisfied with ZT's ELMAX and figure if I really want carbon fiber, I can always get an aftermarket scale for the 0562 if that's what I end up going with.

Does anyone know how hard ZT goes with their ELMAX and M390?

As I understand it, (assuming same quality heat treatment for ease of discussion) ELMAX should be easier to sharpen and also "tougher" than M390 (by tougher I mean less prone to chipping or breaking under torsional stress), but will it not hold its edge as long or be as aggressive of a cutter as M390. Am I correct with these thoughts?

Can anyone share real world, and perhaps long-term experiences with ZT's M390? Or share experiences with ZT's M390 vs ZT's ELMAX?

Considering how much steel performance can vary based on heat treatment, edge geometry, and overall design, I would prefer to hear experiences and opinions of these two steels in the context of ZT knives.

Thanks :thumbup:
 
From what I've found, both steels are hardened to 60-62 RC. I've only had long term experience with Elamx from ZT and for the day to day EDC type chores it held up pretty well. Never chipped or severely rolled the edge and it sharpened up fairly easily.
 
I like elmax, 390 is cool also but if you don't need the CF then I would go with the G-10.
 
Yes silvanus, I completely agree with you about elmax. Sharpens pretty easy and performs quite well in real world use. my first zt was a 0350 with the elmax composite blade- that was right before I really started to learn about knives and how to properly use them, so I ended up doing lots of foolish non-knife tasks and employed poor cutting techniques with that 0350 and the elmax held up to it all...I didn't even sharpen my knives back then, and would cut for a surprisingly long time.

So having said all that, I wonder how much of an upgrade M390 would really be...

I could always ad a nice carbon scale of I wanted to...
 
The m390 is cool. It's easy to sharpen and holds a working edge for some time.
I've reprofiled my zt 0562cf when I first got it; haven't touched the edge since.
 
I have the ZT 0770 CF in M390.
I've had many ZT's and they have always been pretty heavy...and heavy-duty. I am very pleased with the 0770 as it weighs three ounces, but is a top-rated steel (by Ankerson).
I had a choice of Elmax or the M390. BOTH are good blade-steels, but the M390 wasn't much more money, and I'm certain that the edge will last a very long time.
Although many HARD users will disagree with me, I prefer this model over all of the others I have owned. It's lightweight, but very pretty in carbon fiber; the steel is great, and I'm a casual user. It should last me just fine.
 
I chipped the tip edge of my 0562CF sticking it vertically one time into a weathered 2x4 to take a picture. Didn't hit anything in the board, but still chipped it. Boy was I surprised, and kinda bummed.

I'll bet either of my Elmax 0560s would handle that same board without chipping. I'm going to try it today...
 
I like Elmax, but with the heavy blade geometry that ZT likes to use, the toughness of Elmax is overkill; and M390 would be better for an EDC because of its better wear resistance.
 
S30V, S110V, and B75P have not done well for me from KAI. 440V, 14C28N, and elmax have done well for me from KAI. It seems the "simpler" steels they do well, or at least adequate, with, anything that need a more complex or involved heat treat has been subpar. Disappointingly subpar. As far as hardness with their elmax or m390, I don't know. Usually it's a couple of points less than optimum with hardnesses based on what's been established by other people. I've found that to be true based on my own personal usage.

So I'd go with what's known to be good over what's questionable. Although M390 as a steel may be better in certain respects, it has to be done right. Elmax is generally known to be done well by KAI while M390 is still an unknown, so Elmax is what I'd recommend, at least until any possible kinks with their production of it are worked out and tested to ensure high performance and worth the cost.
 
I agree with some of your advice above^ but I think you are overstating without any experience especially at this part: "at least until any possible kinks with their production of it are worked out and tested". I've honestly not heard anything about any kinks with M390 whatsoever? The only bad at all I've read is the comment above that the gentleman chipped the edge of his M390 blade. My good friend actually used a ZT 0620CF to stab the crap out of a steel belted tire and he had no ill effects and could still shave with the front edge of the tanto. ZT's M390 is good stuff in my opinion. I won't say anything bad about it until my experiences or that of trusted friends proves it wrong.

I've also had really good luck with Kershaw/ZT zdp-189 of which they are the only one outside of Hitachi allowed to heat treat it. That says a lot in my book.

Cheers,

-J
 
bad_juju said:
I agree with some of your advice above^ but I think you are overstating without any experience especially at this part: "at least until any possible kinks with their production of it are worked out and tested". I've honestly not heard anything about any kinks with M390 whatsoever? The only bad at all I've read is the comment above that the gentleman chipped the edge of his M390 blade. My good friend actually used a ZT 0620CF to stab the crap out of a steel belted tire and he had no ill effects and could still shave with the front edge of the tanto. ZT's M390 is good stuff in my opinion. I won't say anything bad about it until my experiences or that of trusted friends proves it wrong.

I've also had really good luck with Kershaw/ZT zdp-189 of which they are the only one outside of Hitachi allowed to heat treat it. That says a lot in my book.

Cheers,

-J
Click to expand...

Where did you hear that Hitachi and ZT are the only ones allowed to heat treat ZDP?
 
I would be willing to bet if you took the writing off the blades, most people wouldn't know the difference between s30v,elmax, or m390....
 
bodog said:
Where did you hear that Hitachi and ZT are the only ones allowed to heat treat ZDP?
Click to expand...

Hitachi makes zdp and will only heat treat it themselves. Allegedly it is hard to get the heat treat right on zdp. KAI is the only other company known to heat treat it. I learned this when I posted a thread in the spyderco section asking if there would ever be a zdp military. Give me a sec I'll see if I can find the response from Sal glesser
 
So maybe they will let others heat treat it. Sounds like they just prefer to not let people outside there circle heat treat it

Sal Glesser said:
Hi Realtwitch,

Not likely. Hitachi will ship us any steel they make except ZDP. They prefer that ZDP be heat treated in their trained and authorized heat treaters in Japan. We honor their position.

sal
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vinnier6 said:
I would be willing to bet if you took the writing off the blades, most people wouldn't know the difference between s30v,elmax, or m390....
Click to expand...


I can definitely tell a difference between elmax and s30v. Elmax blunts more smoothly, sharpens easier, and takes a higher polish. I can scrape harder, longer with elmax than s30v. I can chop more with elmax. Basically, I can do more of everything with elmax than I can with S30V, with the exception of simple cutting of soft materials. There, s30v wins. Yes, I can tell a difference. And I'm really skeptical of the true quality of the company that produces the blade with elmax compared to the company that produces the s30v blade I'm comparing it to, so if I was biased, my prejudiced opinion would be reversed and very favorable of s30v or at least very negative of elmax.
 
Therealtwitch said:
So maybe they will let others heat treat it. Sounds like they just prefer to not let people outside there circle heat treat it
Click to expand...

Giving respect to hitachi and their wishes is an honorable way to do business.

Don't know if it matters but here's the basic heat treat protocol for ZDP-189 produced by Hitachi America. If anything, they don't keep it a secret:

http://www.discipleofdesign.com/knives/ZDP189_eng.pdf

Here's what KAI had to say about it:

jXJaCAR.jpg
 
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Kinda bummed to say that I still don't have a new 0562 or 0562cf...I did decide that I would go with Elmax in a normal 0562 and plan to throw on a carbon scale sometime down the line. Unfortunately my car, which was supposed to be ready today, ended up not being ready so I couldn't actually get to my local knife dealer :/

On the plus side, I did find out that the dealer also has the ZT0180. I have been wanting to try out Vanadis 4E, and like the looks of this knife, so I am thinking I may hold off on the 0562 altogether and go for the 0180 instead. We'll see what feels like the best choice when I get to the store on Monday...
 
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