What makes a knife a "second" - PH1 Hunting Heritage Collection

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kevins73cigars

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What exactly makes a knife a second? Are there some set of measurements that a knife must pass before it goes through the final finishing process? How does a second make it out of the factory? How should a second be valued ($$priced) relative to its first-rate brothers?

I have a couple of PH1's and my favorite so far is the Hunting Heritage Collection PH1 that Schrade made for the North American Hunting Club. One of them is a little different from the others though, and I suspect it may be a second. The knife in question does not have the little gold shield (NAHC symbol) in the curly-maple handle and the tip of the blade is slightly more drawn out. Also, it does have the original box and Schrade paperwork, but does not have the NAHC Certificate or the "tips on collecting" sheet that came with the others.
 
The North American Hunting Club 'Life Member' knives that passed muster (Schrade Quality Control) were all sold shortly after introduction I understand. I've been told by a well-known person that even he was unable to obtain one for a friend, soon after their release as all had been sold.
Therefore, it stands to reason that these "factory finds" that surfaced so long after their release are knives that didn't make it to the market (even though the market demand was there) for one reason or another.
It's possible that the knives that didn't make it past QC were retained by Schrade for one reason or another (maybe training purposes?) and have simply become another source of revenue for some, notwithstanding the "quality" factor.
 
Thanks for the response. I bought mine from a really nice guy in Minnesota before the "factory finds" started showing up on eBay. Although, I have since seen a few like the one I referred to - with the NAHC etching on the blade but do not have the sheild in the handle, for sale on eBay. I figured these were "seconds" but it never says "factory 2nd" or anything like that in the post.

When I sell the one I have without the shield, should I list it as a second or just describe it thoroughly?
 
Only you can answer how it "should" be listed.

You're the one who has to look into your mirror.

With that said, I don't know if Schrade sold "seconds" or not - someone else will answer this question, I'm sure.
 
I have been told by several people that there was an employee's store in the plant where workers could buy seconds at discounted prices, usually just enough for the company to recover the costs of the materials. Some were slight flaws, some incomplete knives, and some royal goofs. Buyers frequenty fixed the minor problems themselves on their own time. It was a win/win situation for the comany and for the employees. I believe a lot of the "X'd" and ground tangs came from there. But I must say that I never set foot in the plant, so I cannot confirm this personally. And we all know the story of the rejects released for sale later after the sale of assets. I seem to remember SMKW offering seconds before that though.

Codger
 
Thanks Codger! I never heard the story about the company employees being able to buy slightly-flawed merchandise at cost. I think I've seen a few of these knives over the past year. The last PH1 I bought was a beautiful sambar stag PH1 that I picked up on eBay- from an antique shop in NC. It was definitely a Schrade PH1, but the tang stamp wasn't really a stamp at all - it looked almost like it was printed on the blade - plus there was a chip where the handle met the pommel, so I returned it. That knife was probably one of these 2nd's that was sold at the company store!

Also, I've decided to just use the PH1 "Life Member" second as my own personal camp knife. It's a beauty and I don't think I want to get into the business of selling "seconds"
 
I have several knives which are seconds. I bought them knowing that, as curiosity items. We had a thread on this a while back. I think I showed or mentioned the SG-7 with no tangstamp, a 152OT with the stamp ground off, and a XT2B with the handle mounted inverted. I also have a gold filled etch SDU knife with mismatched bone handles and no shield. There is no dishonor in owning and displaying one, or even in using one. Only in willfully misrepresenting them as firsts when trying to sell one. A few sellers just don't know, but some sellers hope to catch a novice buyer asleep at the keyboard too.

Codger
 
I recently bought an 89OT from e-bay. The seller made no mention of the
fact that it was unfinished. Whether they were a knife person or not(you can tell from the pic he is) it is very obvious that it was not finished at the factory but they described it as new old stock from the factory. The ad had a poor picture which is not uncommon so I but in a modest bid. I was really not to disappointed because the blades have a good grind on them and after comparing it to the one I bought new back in the 80s, it just needs to be sanded and buffed. So beware of this guy because he sells a lot of knives.
I won't buy from him again. I would leave him a negative but he is holding my feedback hostage.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6604121694&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1
 
I spent many a happy hour in the employee store. Many times the flaw or problem was quite obvious however often the blemish or problem was so slight that it took a seasoned employee to spot it. Schrades policy on quality control was quite stringent. Years ago Schrade would XXXX out the tang of a knife not up to standards. ( actually there is now a collector following just for these ). What this did was to show that the knife was indeed a second. Later on they stopped doing this and it added a bit of confusion due to some of the minor problems with many of these knives it was tough to tell if it was a second. The fact is that many of these knives were just as nice as any others. I suppose it depends on what the buyer wants it for, what they paid, and individual opinion.

This is why I feel the best way to buy a knife is still by putting it in your hand and looking at it. Or to buy from a seller who offers an unconditional refund regardless of reason. When I sell a knife in person I tell the buyer to check them until they are satisfied.

Schrade did not electro etch your blade tang. However it is the easiest way to do a marking on an unmarked knife. Schrade made several contract runs for some companies ( Ruger and Colt ) as two examples. These companies specified that they did not want the Schrade tang only there own logos on etch or shield. This is only one reason why there are a lot of these blades around. There are others. An unmarked PH-2 in stag will bring 20 to 40 dollars an etched one 50 to 125. An electro etch takes about 5 minutes.

Smokey would get a break on quantity. As a result often they would buy a pattern which had been overun and call it a second so that they could sell them without dragging down the regular prices. Actually they were the same knife. Sometimes with out a box, sometimes to do this they ( Schrade) would dye the handles a wierd color and sell them to smokey for what amounted to the same reason. ie getting rid of excess stock without killing the market.

At the end the WIP or lot #4 at the auction was so large that only someone with ware houses could store this stuff it was an amazing mass of product. It should not have been that large it should have been broken into many lots but it was done this way so that the people who the bank wanted to buy it were the only ones who could store it. The result was that MILLIONS of pounds ( so much that it is mind boggling ) was sold for 30,000 dollars. When a bid of several hundred thousands for this lot had been previously tendered before a judge he laughed at them an said it was worth millions then it was sold for 30,000. You see by doing it this way the new bank ( and certain foreign companies) gets rid of Schrade and still has through its contacts control of all the merchandise. See a win win the money just gets funneled to another subsideary. AHHH SOOO. Whoops there I go again I am sorry these people would never do that it is my paranoia they are our pals. However that I guess it is just coincidence that this is how it turned out.

The bottom line of this is that there will be lots of these half assed throw togethers floating around for years. However that was not the way they were made when Schrade made them. As far as blaming the sellers truthfully I do not feel many of them really know what they are selling. Like the old commercial parts is parts and the parts are correct. Who and how they are put together is hard to tell but you might want to look for tea stains and left over rice. I use seconds all the time however I usually do not display them. There certainly is a place for them as long as you know what you are buying when you purchase them. And Now for my moment of poetic license these tools should be welcomed and used for there is a place for everyone and everything in this world after all ( here it comes ) The woods would be very silent if the only birds that sang there were the ones who only sang the very best. OK wipe that tear away. That is the whole story. LT
 
circumspeck wow that is a big word Del I looked it up ( but do not spell very well ) however isn't that operation done on newborns arent you a little old to have had that operation now. Oh well whenever any one has it done it is always FORE GONE conclusion. circumspeck HUMMM. LT
 
misspelled - what else??

can I now call those who turned 30K into multiples thereof "pricks"??

as for there being many "innocents" flogging the "stuff", I don't buy it

most know what they are doing - and that is "ripping others off" - simple!! :-)
 
It really isn't to bad getting shot in the back it is not knowing who shot you the only thing worse than that is when you find out to continue to not accept it and make excuses for them. The first step back is admitting what the problems is. Once again the answer is simple stop buying the stuff our enemies are selling. If we just won't buy it the problem ends. Unless of course we have become so fatted and reticent that we can no long provide for ourselves in which case it is already to late. As was posted here a few days ago it is now a matter of survival. LT
 
Upstream said:
I recently bought an 89OT from e-bay. The seller made no mention of the
fact that it was unfinished.. So beware of this guy because he sells a lot of knives.
I won't buy from him again. I would leave him a negative but he is holding my feedback hostage.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6604121694&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1
Click to expand...

Upstream,
This guy has been seen at the Sayre flea market in 2005, with a couple large boxes of Schrade knives. He told my son that he bought them at the factory dispersal sale. His pictures always leave you guessing.
There is another eBay seller from Athens,Pa ( which is near Ulster),who also sells similar stuff.There is also a guy from Canton,Pa who sometinmes sells Schrades and these towns aren't 30 miles apart.
Ron
 
I guess I can't complain considering what I paid for it, the blades have a good snap and a nice grind. I just think the guy should advertise it for what it is, an unfinished knife. He may even have gotten more for it if he had.
Who knows, maybe I'll just turn into one of those bird guys that collects
rejects.
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