What makes busse knives so desireable?

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chinagreen

Joined
Jun 4, 2011
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Hey I am a newbie to this forum and until I joined I did not know half of these knife makers existed. I know, I live under a rock. So that being stated what makes these knives inparticular so desireable. I can see that a lot of artistic ability went into design. Are they that much more durable, hold an edge better, easier to put a razors edge on, WHAT? I am so intrigued by these knives that I am in the process of purchasing a SAR 3. What does the SAR stand for? I have carried a knife for as long as I can remember, at least since I was 7 or 8 years old. Just a very utilitarian object I have always had at my finger tips.

Please explain what all the hype is about, in your own words. Thank you-Chinagreen
 
Welcome to the madness!!! Leave while your credit card is still alive :D ;)

What part of CT you from? I grew up in Stamford and Greenwich.

The knives and steel are amazing themselves, but first and foremost what does it for me is the customer service and involvement in these forums from Jerry and the gang. I enjoy supporting them and I really enjoy the community that is here on Bladeforums - I would not be as into Busse if it wasnt for the people on this subforum.

Further, I feel INFI really excels and shines over the competition when it comes to heavy beatings - I love BIG Busses (7" and up) and there is a noticeable difference as compared to other steels with regards to edge durability - INFI tends to roll instead of chipping out and is easily steeled back to normal. The edge retention is also very good.

There is some koolaid drinking involved, but I think that is just the nature of the knife business :D

You are coming into Busse knives at a pretty cool time - the market favors buyers and Jerry is rolling out some amazing new knife models and apparently business models. Just make sure you do a lot of research in the stickies here to learn as much as you can - there are a lot of great resources.

Last warning to run now before you get bit by the INFI bug, because it bites HARD!!! :D

Oh, SAR3 stands for: search and rescue - 3 inches. There is also a SAR5, SAR6 and SAR8.
 
You have to hold one to understand fully. Busse basically re-wrote the book on what qualifies as a big stout knife. Welcome to the boards from another CT resident. I am in norwalk/westport. check out the battle mistress test on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuztQyvyPCw basically says it all.
 
There's a lot that goes into the Busse desirability. You have to stick around and find out.

Are they superior materials, designs, service, or community? Probably, but some would argue maybe not.

They do seem to perform well, but it's all about your priorities in a blade that tell if you find a Busse worthwhile or just a over-priced tool with no advantage over something cheap.
 
Busse's proprietary steel INFI performs really well in big choppers. They say it's in the secret heat treatment which I believe is rumored to have a couple cryogenic cycles. Jerry Busse's designs are innovative and highly influential as well. Busse Combat listens to what people want and "Bring It!" on a regular basis. The people are very nice too.

If you have a use for a big knife, a Busse will serve you really well. Nothing wrong with the little ones either, lord knows I have a bunch of those too. All of the acronyms are pretty intimidating but it makes the collecting more fun once you know the lingo. If you are the type of person who can make a decision and stick with it, you'll be well served for life with any one Busse. The warranty is over the top--fully transferable and covers most damage. Don't destroy it on purpose (ie shoot it with a 50 BMG) and you'll be covered.

Welcome to the fold. :cool:
 
wrxguyusa said:
There's a lot that goes into the Busse desirability. You have to stick around and find out.

Are they superior materials, designs, service, or community? Probably, but some would argue maybe not.

They do seem to perform well, but it's all about your priorities in a blade that tell if you find a Busse worthwhile or just a over-priced tool with no advantage over something cheap.
Click to expand...

Useful advice. In the end, it is all about YOUR priorities.

Do your research, talk with folks, and if possible get a loaner or two to beat on before spending your hard-earned cash. There are a lot of good folks around here who will be glad to help.
 
Busse knives are not the absolute best in all regards compared to other knives, steels or companies. However, the busse group of companies has several attributes in their knives that make them desirable over others: IF you are looking for those attributes. I'm a firm believer that an educated stance is better then blind belief or allegiance to a brand. I can say without much hesitation that there are better steels for certain tasks than infi. I can also say without much hesitation that for hard use/abuse, infi is the best combination of attributes you are going to find. Its major competitor is 3v, but there you are trading certain attributes for, it's not really better, just close.

Here is a basic short list of things that people look for in knives:
Core attributes:
High hardness - How much force it takes to push a diamond bit a specific depth into the metal. The harder the metal, generally the higher the abrasion resistance and the better it resists deformation at thin cross sections. The downside is that it lowers malleability, makes it more likely to chip at thin cross sections, and it can increase the chance of it snapping from torquing or lateral forces (depending on the steel).
Abrasion resistance - The ability to resist abrasion (removal of material via a gritty materal, think sand paper, dirt in a burlap sack, roofing shingles). This can be affected by other attributes, such as malleability - if the material has no malleability and low toughness it may be more likely to suffer from microchips at the edge rather then small deformations, so that even though it has higher abrasion resistance it suffers from more damage then a lower abrasion resistant steel.
Malleability at high hardness - malleability is the ability to become plastic (deform) before chipping, cracking or suffering catastrophic failure. This is where you get a dented edge instead of a chipped edge. Malleability at low hardness generally means you'll also have reduced toughness, making the knife much less desirable. Maleability is ideally combined with toughness, because without it takes very little force to get the edge to moosh over.
Corrosion resistance - The ability to resist corrosion. Corrosion is often through oxidization, such as copper oxides, aluminum oxides, and in the case of steel ferric oxide. FeO3 (orange rust) is a lopsided oxide, it wants to seek out more electrons to complete it's last valance shell (the last ring of electrons wants to be full, if it has to many electrons it wants to give one way, if it doesn't have enough it wants to grab one from another atom/group of atoms), so it spreads and creates/combines with more orange rust. Black rust is feO4 has a full valance shell and is stable, it doesn't seek out and bring into being more of itself, eating away the surface of the knife. Corrosion resistance in knives can be viewed as the ability to resist orange rust forming on it's surface.
toughness/Strength - Toughness is the ability of a steel to take a high amount of force before deforming. This is ideally combined with malleability, so that it takes a lot of force to get the edge or knife to bend and when it does bend it takes a set rather then chips or cracks. Without malleability the knife is still breakable by hand, it just takes more force.
Shock resistance - The ability of the steel matrix to resist fracturing and cracking under shock loads. Shock loads are often at odd angles like when you miss a chop and bang the edge into hardwood at a 45 degree angle, a non-shock resistant steel is more likely to lose a chunk of it's edge (sometimes a full inch into the main grind) from that. Shock resistance is ideally paired with toughness and malleability.

Combination attributes:
Edge stability at thin cross sections - This is a combination of toughness and and hardness. If the edge has no toughness it won't be stable because it is likely to chip out at low force. If it has no hardness it isn't likely to be tough, it may be malleable but it takes low force to get it to roll over or mash, so it isn't stable. it's a balancing act between other core attributes.
Ease of sharpening - This can be acheived by low hardness, maleability, or low abrasion resistance. Low hardness lowers abrasion resistance which makes it easier to sharpen, but it can also lower toughness and sometimes corrosion resistance. High maleability means it is likely to move over with force, therefor being easier to steel back into alignment and being 'pushed' back into a sharp edge instead of abraded. Low abrasion resistance can work if you maintain toughness, but often it means that you'll have an edge that loses it's initial sharpness quickly.
Edge retention - The ability to hold a sharp edge for long periods of use. This can be had through high hardness, abrasion resistance, and in some cases malleability. High hardness increases abrasion resistance which means it will take longer for the metal at the edge to be abraded away, taking longer for the edge to become dull (as long as it doesn't suffer microchipping, eating away chunks of the edge at a time). Ideally you want toughness with a high hardness on high abrasion resistant steels like bg42 or m4, you want it to take a lot of force before it chips out. In the case of INFI, it's malleability can in some instances lead to longer edge retention on softer materials. This is likely because the wood pushes the edge back into alignment when it suffers minor deformation and edge blunting, giving it the seeming appearance of 'getting sharper with use'. In reality it's just holding it's edge in a uniform position through realignment without suffering microchipping that would cause further localized damage or deformation. You have to have toughness for this to happen, because if the steel isn't tough but is highly malleable, the rolls, dents and mashes will be large enough that the wood will strike them and make them worse, causing a dent to dent further and a mash to become bigger and push farther into the edge.

Side attributes:
High red hardness -This benefits knife users in that it allows makers to polish the knives at thin cross sections. When you polish a knife it gets very hot, if it's very thin it gets very very hot very fast. If your knife loses it's temper/hardness at 400 degree's you can burn it out in 3 passes on a buffing wheel. In the case of INFI it loses it's temper over extended exposure to >900 degree's.


So where does INFI fall into all this? Infi has:
-High hardness (58-62rc). Infi can't be brought above 62rc, but that is high enouh for most knife applications.
-High malleability at high hardness
-High toughness/strength
-Medium wear resistance (you see the best edge lasting on softer woods)
-Medium-high corrosion resistance
-High red hardness

The combination of attributes makes for a knife that is nearly impossible to destroy by hand without using another implement like a metal hammer, IF it's in the correct geometry. Because of it's high malleability at 60rc, in thin cross sections it tends to roll over. If you have enough metal behind the edge it's combination of toughness and malleability means it takes a huge amount of force to get the metal to move, and when it does it dents mashes or rolls without chipping, and only a small way into the edge/main grind. It takes a lot of force to get INFI to bend when prying with it, and by the time you get it to the point where it'll deform, it does. It takes a set instead of snapping. The edge will tear away from the knife instead of snapping away like glass. Even though it's not very stable at thin cross sections because of it's malleability, that same attribute makes it very easy to sharpen compared to something like bg42 (which is a GIANT pain in the butt to sharpen). It's corrosion resistant enough that if it does develop rust it's only surface rust that comes off easily.

That doesn't mean it's perfect for every task. It's not as corrosion resistant as H1, so it may not be ideal for corrosive marine diving. It's doesn't have the thin cross section stability of d2, so it may not be ideal for a field scalpel skinner. It doesn't have the wear resistance of M4, so it may not be as good for a knife that you just never want to have to sharpen (and it'll be a pain when you do). That said, it's tougher than H1 and will take more force to get it to take damage. It's tougher than d2 and will take more force to get it to take damage. It's tougher than M4 and will take more force before it takes damage.

INFI is meant to get as many good attributes as it can in the highest level possible as long as it maintains one core ability: to be as close to unbreakable by hand as possible.

In that, it performs excellently.
 
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JenniferBusse said:
Why D-2?

Hi guys! Eric is on the road right now and I wanted to take this opportunity to address some of the questions that have been raised concerning our use of D-2 tool steel in our upcoming series of hunter and utility blades. D-2 has recently gained a lot of popularity in the knifemaking community. Not surprisingly, Jerry (my husband) had used D-2 for many years when he was a custom maker. Recently while clearing out his original shop he decided to inventory his stores of bar stock. As it turns out, he had amassed quite a bit of his favorite tool steels including many tons of A-2 and D-2 tool steel. He put over 41,000 pounds of D-2 tools steel on the “For Sale” boards at over 90% off of the regular selling price! One of the deterring factors to using D-2 is its high price. Normally a 1/8” thick x 1 ½” wide x 18” long bar of precision ground D-2 Tool Steel costs $40.34 per bar. You can only get two 9” OAL knives out of a single bar. That means your raw steel cost per blade is over $20.00! That is over 3 times more expensive than using some of the other grades of cutlery steel!

Eric, called and asked about using the D-2 Tool Steel stock for Swamp Rat. Don’t you just hate when a great idea is sitting under your nose and you don’t see it yourself? Keeping in mind that Swamp Rat is all about saving Rat lovers money on high performance bladeware, I just couldn’t say “no” to the idea. After consulting with our production team on advantages and disadvantages of D-2 tool steel, we moved in and purchased over 30,000 pounds of the stock from Busse Combat.

Jerry is a big fan of D-2 blades when everything is done right on the knife. We have taken his advice on design, heat-treat, edge geometry, etc… and, in concert, with our superior Resiprene C handles will bring the finest, highest performance D-2 Tool Steel blades to the market. I asked Jerry to answer some questions about D-2 and here are his responses.

Why not stick with SR-101? And how does D-2 compare to SR-101?




Jerry:

“In the performance arena, it is nearly impossible to match what Swamp Rat is getting out of SR-101 in certain areas. The combination of incredible edge holding and toughness are unparalleled in the industry (except for INFI . . Sorry, I had to throw that in ;) ) . D-2 has a much better resistance to the elements in an uncoated or satin finished format than does SR-101. D-2 rivals ATS-34 for stain resistance and in fact proves to be nearly identical in this area in our accelerated salt spray corrosion tests. Surprisingly, or maybe not so surprisingly, the heat treatment and finish of D-2 can have a major impact on its corrosion resistance. When done properly, a D-2 blade requires minimal maintenance. Cleaning and oiling are a good idea but simply wiping the blade off and keeping it fairly dry will usually be all that is required for proper care.

In edge holding D-2 is an excellent steel and easily surpasses SR-101 when cutting harder materials such as steel banding, bone, etc. . . In soft to medium materials they are very similar in edge holding. In chopping and high impact applications, SR-101 easily surpasses D-2. Because of this, I do not recommend that any D-2 blades be longer than 5”.

In extremely thin edges, such as are planned for the Hunter/Utility line, D-2 will prove to be a superior choice. The same qualities that make SR-101 a great steel for abuse, play against the house when it comes to extremely thin cross sections. Under contact (cutting not chopping) with harder materials such as metal banding, bone, rock, etc. . . SR-101 will roll whereas D-2 will prove to be the clear winner in these applications. However, if you do any heavy lateral stressing on a thin cross sectioned D-2 blade, you may be glad that your Swamp Rat D-2 blade is backed by the best no BS warranty in the industry! ;)

D-2 also has a much greater resistance to high heat applications. What does that mean to you? Well, for us, as manufacturers that means that very fine edges can be satin finished with little worry of affecting the temper along the edge. This is not the case with SR-101, or any other simple “high carbon” steels, where extremely thin sections along the edge can be greatly affected by the heat generated from polishing.

So, in summary, for an uncoated blade with extremely thin cross sections, where cutting is the only intended application and hard materials such as bone, metal banding, etc…will be in contact with the edge, D-2 will prove to be a superior steel in edge holding and resistance to the elements.

In more abusive applications where cutting is to be coupled with prying, lateral stressing, high impact, and overall toughness, SR-101 will prove to be far superior to D-2.” --- Jerry Busse





So, when looking at the properties of these 2 steels you can see why we chose D-2 for our thin edged, bare metal, slicers.

Swamp Rat D-2 Tool Steel blades will prove to some of your favorite Rats. They will also stand as the only D-2 blades on the market that are covered against any and all major damage. . . :cool:

Thanks! :D

Jennifer
Click to expand...
 
In the design arena, they are pretty and have good dynamic ergonomics. Jerry has been slowly developing different ergonomic grips where many other manufacturers have a much more static handle design. The catalog of models has increased dramatically in the past few years and there are many different styles and designs to choose from. The handle slab machining is excellent. There are more heavy chopper models in the busse line up then most other companies. They come with a lifetime guarantee against damage (unless you take a blow torch to it or otherwise modify it to the point that it's no longer what they intended to produce, though Busse has stated that he's never turned down a warranty request to date). The company is friendly and willing to talk with you if your willing to go through the process of really getting in touch with them (calling or emailing the people who are able to respond like the shop itself or Amy-0).
 
LVC, I gotta say that is some fantastic information!! Thanks for sharing that knowledge. :thumbup:
 
wrxguyusa said:
There's a lot that goes into the Busse desirability. You have to stick around and find out.

Are they superior materials, designs, service, or community? Probably, but some would argue maybe not.

They do seem to perform well, but it's all about your priorities in a blade that tell if you find a Busse worthwhile or just a over-priced tool with no advantage over something cheap.
Click to expand...

Well, I think the "value is in the eye of the beholder" line which is essentially being delivered here could have been achieved a little more politically, but perhaps being politic about it wasn't the intent.

Anyway, as to what makes them so desirable, it's an extremely difficult question to articulate and make anybody understand. Like a Ferrari, or a Les Paul guitar, or a real diamond versus one grown in a laboratory, there is a mystique to some products that will not translate for all people as a pure question of value. Now, the source of the mystique when it comes to Busses is a little easier to put a finger on, and it centers around a few things:

1) Jerry. Just a hell of a nice guy who's very good with people, and has built a community around his knives that has fun and a real sense of belonging that, to some, borders on fanaticism. Kind of like what the Saturn car company was striving for in the beginning, except Jerry actually achieved it. Yes, lots of makers/manufacturers have enthusiastic followings, but should you ever go to the annual Blade Show (or Blade West) and listen for about five seconds, the large amount of roudy noise that you are hearing is coming from just one spot in that gigantic room. Do the non-Busse people find it obnoxious? How the hell would I know, I'm not a non-Busse person. :D

2) The Warranty. Okay, lots of good knife makers have warranties for their knives, but most of them are limited by perfectly reasonable clauses like, "If you used this knife to do something that was completely goofy and stupid, and managed to break it during that use, we aren't responsible." With the exception of cutting through your Busse with a bandsaw or torch (unless of course there is a good enough story behind it about how a raving maniac wielding a bandsaw attacked you and all you had was your knife) your hard use knife from Wauseon is covered. "I used it as a drill to go through concrete and messed the tip up"---covered. "I had to get out of a downed helicopter and dinged up my edge"---covered. "It was the finals of the Olympic High Diving competition and they forgot to bring a diving board, but I realized that if I took the scales off my Battle Mistress...."----covered. Now, goofy extremes aside, it's just nice to know that---unlike MANY makers of some very good knives---you don't have to sit and worry about whether or not the damage your knife takes through any normal use or accident is going to be covered. Some other makers/manufacturers have followed suit, but the whole concept of a specially designed hard-use knife that still has a blade geometry that can actually cut is a relatively new one in the cutlery world, and Jerry was among the first.

3) INFI. No, it does not contain magical fairy dust that will make you realize what a fool you've been for ever using any other cutlery steel. It's not its performance in one area or another, but in all areas. Kind of the Babe Ruth of knife steel--some come along and surpass it in exactly one specialized area, but never taking the crown away in terms of overall greatness. There are steels that resist corrosion better than INFI does, that will cut abrasive materials longer than it will, support a thinner edge than it will, and perhaps (I'm talking S5 and S7 here) are tougher than it under impact. Find me one steel that's better than it in all of those things, however. If you're not much of a knife guy, it's not going to come across as impressive to you as it really is, but in terms of steel behavior INFI is just weird. It behaves like the really tough simple tool/spring steels like 5160 and L6 under abuse (only tougher), and yet is damned near stainless. It has high ductility at around 60 HRC, meaning that not only can it support a thin, sharp edge but when it takes damage that edge will roll or indent but almost never fracture. That's just bizarre. And highly cool. It's also exclusive to Jerry--there are no other knife makers using it, anywhere. Not only is it an alloy that's not readily available in the quantities that most knife makers want to deal with, but the heat treatment is apparently very complicated and expensive. Some say that's all marketing. I can only speak as one who has spent a LOT of time using and grinding a whole bunch of different cutlery steels over the years, and will say that INFI's behavior absolutely confuses the hell out of me. And I love it.

Is it worth it? My uncle is a rancher in Colorado who's worked hard all his life and uses his tools correctly but hard nonetheless. He would never pay more than $50 for a knife. To him, it's not worth it. Knives are PURELY tools to him, and have no romance one way or another, and he's made it to this point in his life quite successfully using a Case slipjoint. Some would read this and say with vindication, "Ahah!! See?" and then go on about how they feel the same way; to which I have to respond, "And he also would never, ever, ever hop onto an internet forum to talk about knives." ;)

Busses, Ferraris, real diamonds, pretty girls...these are all things that you can absolutely get through life without. There's also always going to be a whole lot of people who lust after them, and with reason.
 
i like busse's mainly for the designs. i think they have made and continue to make some of the coolest looking knives ever,,they also perform!! the community here and the customer service/warranty aint bad either:D:thumbup:.
 
There is nothing to see here -- It's all hype, stay away...
(or else you'll find a whole new world of fantastic bullet proof, hard-use knives and shrink the pool for the rest of us)

To me, these are the real deal -- meaning they have the quality to go with the looks. I've had large knives in the past that looked the part but failed in durability. When you hold a Busse, you feel confident that you could throw it off a cliff -- and would expect to find it at the bottom just fine. Having one is not enough to satisfy yourself either... it leads to more since there is a massive variety -- both old and new that are constantly changing hands. Then - there is the best part -- there is no corporate feel to this company -- you can get direct access to the people who build your knives and care about the people that buy them.

Enjoy your SAR3 and make sure you use it -- you'll appreciate it more.
 
What makes Busse knives desirable to me personally is INFI. I have been using knives since I was in cub scouts (don't laugh :o) and you can really tell the difference between a good knife and an average knife if you use it enough. INFI has the best balance of toughness, stain resistance, and edge retention in the world...IMHO. Plus, even a total novice sharpener like myself can keep it sharp enough to chop; great stuff.
 
There is a lot of hype, but that doesn't mean there is no substance. I personally like Busse because of the designs. The materials are what I want and prefer as well. The customer service is unsurpassed in my experience and in all honesty the knives have brought me to many friendships I otherwise would have never had.
 
...Lets be honest--"most" of us don't find ourselves in a "survival" situation where we absolutely have to be able to count on our knife on a daily/regular basis. That being said; when I am in that type of enviornment or dealing with a situation of that nature-- I want a knife that I can ABSOLUTELY count on NOT to fail me under just about ANY circumstance. That's where Busse Combat comes in..."Nuclear Toughness" is not just merely a catch phrase...beyond their asthetics (which are phenominal) these knives are extremely ergo, and otherworldly tough.

By the way--I was introduced to Bussekin knives by a couple of friends who DO trust their lives to their knives--on a daily basis...that was reason enough for me to take the first look.

Now days, I spend time here because of the people as well...there are some good folks strolling these halls on a fairly regular basis and the Busse crew is top notch!
 
Great input from everyone! Another thing about Busse that I like - passion! Generally, Busse fans are a great group of people who often go above and beyond to help each other out. :thumbup:
 
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