What makes INFI so special???

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I was speaking with a custom blader maker the other day. I won't mention names... Be he is pretty aclaimed and is fairly famous for making wonderful blades. Anyway. I was talking with him about how impressive the INFI sounds, since I have yet to get any out in the dirt, and he told me that there is nothing special about it. "It is no better than 1095." I was a bit suprised to here him say this. What does make INFI so special. I love the Busse line and think Jerry's knives are the bomb. But do we really know anything about INFI. Are we getting excited over nothing? I hope not. Never the less i still intend to get me a few of the big boys and treat them like treasure. I don't think Jerry would make such a big deal of it if it weren't the ****. Anyone have anything to add to the question what makes INFI so special?

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If I'm goin down, I'm takin you all with me!
 
Ryu, there are tons of threads explaining INFI, but I will give you a quick history. Oh by the way, that knifemaker obviously does not know what he is talking about.

Anyway, INFI is a good carbon steel with many alloying elements in it, but there is one compound used that sets it apart from all others. This compound was invented in the 1950's by a scientist that was not so well known but was brilliant. A movie was even made as a tribute to this man. In any case this compound gives the Busse knives everything needed to make them nearly indestructible. The hard part for Busse was introducing it into the steel during the melting process. There were many violent reactions, until one day Busse got the formula right with the help of that scientist and some other scientists and engineers. I guess you are wondering what the compound is aren't you. The magic compound is Flubber. I guess I strung you all long enough. Gotcha
 
In the saga of the "Nibelungen" (about AD 1000) swordsmith Wieland fed iron filings to geese, recovered from their "output", melted again, forged to a sword called "Mimmung" that later became very famous. That's the oldest recipe for carbo/nitrogenated steel of the western world. It has been tested lately, it works!
Later "bone-coal" was used for phosphor-rich steel(very hard), "blood-coal" for nitrogen-rich steel (very tough) and charcoal for sulfur-free (almost stainless) steel.
Our ancestors weren't that dumb.
smile.gif


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D.T. UTZINGER
 
There is too much testing an evidense the prooves INFI is better than 1095 to entertain educating the uneducatable. If a maker made that bold of a statement then the maker is not a maker that I want to be associated with. INFI is for real and I have witnessed it first hand, tested it first hand and I do know the secret ingredients and more importantly how it is made.

Maybe one day when Jerry has all his ducks in a row he can release all the info that will take the mystery out of it. It seems makers have a problem with new proprietary steels. Heck even Microtech now claims to have some super steel.

BTW Carbon V changed again a couple of years ago and is not the same CV it was a while back when it was simply a modified 1095.

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Mike Turber
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For the most extant info RE its composition thus far, see the thread, "What is INFI?"

www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000691.html

FYI -- Glen

PS Its last entry list a breakdown of its composition, which has been confirmed by Jerry Busse. But, as Mike Turber notes, it's HOW he gets the Ni INTO the steel that remains proprietary, least while its patent application remains pending.

[This message has been edited by storyville (edited 04-08-2000).]
 
Probably not, but beware of mixing up Ni(nickel) and N(nitrogen). It makes a difference.
In a general way I would try potassium cyanide as a nitrogen source which may be added without pressure. Otherwise it's ammonia under pressure.


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D.T. UTZINGER
 
Similar to Mike, that maker is not someone I would want to have anything to do with. I would be curious as to how they were similar besides the fact that they are both steel.

-Cliff
 
I see that a lot of you guys have taken this personally. I am not bashing INFI by any means. I like it fine and intend to buy a few Busse's. But how would it stack up to say tempered damascus or san-mai? Just trying to get some info on where it stands in the scheme of things. Is INFI Only superior in a small amount? Like, say you were to make a longer blade out of INFI... How would a 24 inch blade react? Would it still be far superior to all other blade steels? just wondering. And PS relax guys. You'd think I just kindnapped one of your kids.
smile.gif


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If I'm goin down, I'm takin you all with me!
 
Ryu,

The issues you raise in your second post deserve attention. I think many would like to see how INFI stacks up to quality damascus or san-mai. And many would like to know in what designs INFI excells and in what designs/ applications it may be less effective. But your first post casually refers to an “acclaimed,” “famous” maker who compares INFI to 1095, and who questions its reputation.

There’s plenty of readily-available info here on INFI’s properties and tested abilities, from countless anecdotal accounts to more comparative or systematic evidence. After much credible testing, it has rivalled or surpassed other highly-regarded materials in many key performance categories, and has proven itself possibly the most versatile all-round blade material. That is, INFI (and Busse knives) has *earned* the excellent reputation it enjoys here.

If some (three?) folks have responded strongly, it’s because your first post casually challenges established wisdom by citing an ostensibly credible authority on knives. Such criticism is not taken lightly because it can diminish a maker/manufacturer’s reputation; yet the criticism itself cannot be subject to scrutiny, because its source remains anonymous and is delivered second-hand.

If your source is serious about his opinion, then invite him to participate on this thread. Or, if he is not online, ask if you may disclose his identity publicly to authenticate his view. If he is indeed a quality maker, his opinion here will be respected. If his criticism of INFI is informed by legitimate evidence, then many folks here (myself included) are very willing to hear it out and consider it objectively.

My .02 --
Glen

[This message has been edited by storyville (edited 04-09-2000).]
 
storyville- in a rational/considerate world your post would be correct, but given the web and trial by internet, aka 'flame them alive', your advice may not be as sound.

I think I know what was meant by the comment, "1095 is as good as INFI", the maker was probably taking the position that given a good heat treat and apropriate geometry, a 1095 blade will do everything a person needs. A position that often is cited, albeit in the form of "Well, it depends on what you need it for" and "There are no miracle steels, only effective compromises".

And I would probably agree that INFI represents a real advancement, though I would not scoff at a well made 1095 blade. And given the price/availability/lack of options of INFI and INFI products, one may very well choose a well made 1095 blade.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite and Cobalt Materials Resource Page

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Ryu, no one was attacking you or taking it personnaly. I think you read to much into the responses. I just said that the knife maker that made the statement, doesn't have a clue about steels at all, if that is the only statement he made.

Now, you may have taken what he said out of context and made it sound worse than it is. For example, a 1095 or other simple steel blade that is FORGED by a good custom maker can equal many hi-tec steels in performance due to the well known advantages of forging. If this is what the maker meant, then he would be right, that one of his well made FORGED 1095 blades can do anything that needs to be done.

Could this be what was meant, maybe?
 
Cobalt INFI can be forged as well, Jerry Busse has given stock to Tim Zowada. For clarification, my post was not of a personal nature, I have simply used knives of 1095 and of INFI. There is a difference, for one, 1095 is a fairly weak steel, INFI is not. They are also very dissimilar in terms of corrosion resistance, slicing aggressiveness, edge retention and other aspects.

Any maker who states INFI does not offer an advantage over 1095 is either lying or has no level of practical experience. I would not want to work with anyone who was represented by either of these two claims.

Marion, you can of course make due with anything. In fact in most situations you can make due without a knife. For example if I want to put a Tomato on my hamburger I can slice it up with my knife or simply mash it flat with my hand. Now the latter part is getting absurd but the point remains that INFI does offer advantages in terms of its material abilities. It is of course up to the maker to actually get a better knife out of it.

One thing I would mention is that often the abilities of "better" knives are only known if work is done of enough extent. For example the RCM I had was perfectly comfortable for 100 chops on hardwoods, it started to get uncomfortable after that. The edge on it held up fine for about 400 chops and then rippled after that.

It is the same with any tool. If I wanted to spread a wheelbarrow of crushed stone either a square or pointed shovel would do. If I had to fill in a basement I would quickly reach for one and break the handle on the other if it was the only one left (so I could go out for a replacement).

-Cliff
 
But how would it stack up to say tempered damascus or san-mai?
Click to expand...

Ryu --

I'm curious, that quote above makes it sound as if you think tempered damascus and san mai are the the ones to beat in steel. I'm actually interested in exploring that more. There has been a recent thread on damascus here on bladeforums, and another on Ron Hood's forum. I maintain that basically, at BEST, a good damascus well-manufactured and heat-treated can perform as well as the best heterogeneous steels. In theory a good damascus can perform better, but I haven't seen it. I have talked to plenty of damascus makers who say up front their damascus isn't as good as heterogenous steel, or is at best on-par.

As far as San Mai, again, I understand the theory and it seems like San Mais should be awesome; I haven't handled many San Mais personally, but haven't heard about anything mind-numbing performance-wise. I have heard tons about San Mais coming apart at the lamination under hard use, though.

I'm definitely not claiming to have end-all knowledge here, I haven't handled enough great damascus or San Mais personally so I'm often relying on others'. But I've been challenging people to come up with hard proof -- as in, an actual blade that someone can test against some well-done A-2, for example -- for a long time, and not seen any takers.


Joe
 
I'm sure someone out there has a San Mai Trailmaster for testing. If San Mai was so great, I think even CS would be using it in their Proof video, instead of using Carbon V for most of the testing.

Cliff, I agree that apples to apples INFI will be better than 1095, and if both are forged, again apples to apples, INFI will win, so will many other steels. This does not mean that a forged 1095 is worthless.
 
I never really meant to compare INFI to 1095. That was just the comment made. And yes, the comparison would be against a good hand forged blade made of damascus or san mai. The original reason for posting this was not to start an argument either. My real intention now revealed was to solicit some good opinions on what would make the best blade of a longer nature. Here is the deal... I am having a sword made. i am no expert by any means on steels and what kinds go well together and which don't. When thinking of having Busse make a sword for me I talked to other smiths. One told me that there was nothing really special about INFI as there is no real magic steel. I was told that a hand forged blade made of (now, I may be mistaken in this combination of steel) damscus with a san mai core (or maybe the other way around) would out do an INFI blade in most if not all aspects. Now as many of you know, having a sword made can be a 4,000.00 dollar project. So it is something that I do not take lightly. I can't afford to get both and form my own opinion. So I am relying on the more experienced members of blade forums for help. I know Busse knives are great. I have every faith in them in a small package (like a 9 inch blade that is .25 inch thick). I mean a knife made out of junk steel would be hell to ruin in that thick of a piece. Never the less I know the INFI blades are superior and a wonderful mixture of materials and design. But even knowing Busses reputation I refuse to blindly have a blade made of INFI without exploring all my options. So you see where I am comming from. so please don't think I am trying to start a fight. And I am also fairly new to the forums and need to work on wording my questions better. But all and all I am in search of knowledge here. i was initially excited about a sword of INFI but the sound of forged steel sounded better. But here I am before I go with either to hear what my learned friends at the blade forums have to say. Sorry for my large amount of ignorance and i would appreciate any and all help I could get here.
 
Ryu, I understand. I would be asking a lot of questions too if I were about to drop that kind of money on a blade, as you want to do it right the first time. I would say that INFI seems to be the best steel I have used for what you would call "small" applications. However I have no experience with the other two steels you have mentioned.
Hopefully you will become more informed and make the right choice for you, whatever that may be. BTW are you going to use the sword? I would guess so since your exploring "using" steels but I was just curious. Later, Jeff
 
Cobalt :

This does not mean that a forged 1095 is worthless.
Click to expand...

Of course not, but the issue was which would be better, or would INFI offer an advantage. It is and it does. If you really wanted to compete with INFI, try Ed Schott and CPM-3V.

-Cliff
 
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