What makes someone a knife collector?

[Patrice Lemée]

Another thread made me realize that I don't know much about the buying side of knife making. Not that is is essential for me as I am not a full time maker but I find it interesting and I think it would be a useful thing to know for someone wanting to become one.

So what makes someone a collector as opposed to well, just a occasional knife buyer I suppose? There was some talk about involvement in the design process. Is that a factor?
I was surprised to learn that a majority of people buying custom knives want to participate in the design process.

Any thoughts?

 

[james terrio]

Hmm, that's kind of hard to pin down. I'm sure the collecting organizations have thoughts on the matter, but I'm too lazy to look them up at the moment. Not being a collector myself, my reflections probably don't have much value. After the Badger Show, I had a hard time explaining my girlfriend's question, "How can Randalls be collectable when there's SO many of them?"

Off the top of my head I'd venture that collectors buy knives to satisfy their own interest in the craft, for possible resale profit later, or more specifically as examples of a particular maker/period/style. Whereas users buy knives to use - even if they may own more knives than they'd ever wear out in a lifetime or two.

Now for a whole 'nother can of worms...

I was surprised to learn that a majority of people buying custom knives want to participate in the design process.

That's not surprising to me at all, in fact I think that defines a custom order - the customer has at least some idea what he wants, rather than selecting from what you've already made. I've only made customs for users not collectors, but they had widely varying degrees of involvement.

Ranging from "Can you make one like this, except with different handle material?" to my most recent order where the fellow sent me a complete set of CAD drawings and material specs to work from. In either case the lists of options are vast and that's a big part of the fun for me.

Custom knives are generally handmade but may also be factory knives with options chosen by the customer; handmade knives are often called customs due to special features, but may have no involvement with the customer at all prior to sale. At least, that makes sense to me.

 

[tryppyr]

The guy that got me into knives is something of a collector. He primarily focuses on production knives, and seemed to have the most interest in Benchmade products. Custom stuff didn't have as much interest for him.

I'm sure other collectors follow the opposite track, and focus their collections on unique pieces.

One thing I do know about the collecting community in general (and I presume it applies to knife collectors as well) is that each collector comes to the hobby with a unique combination of interests that drive their collecting behavior. You can't make much more specific statements about the generalized question of what drives collector interest. Here are some of the factors I'm aware of:

1) Interest in specific types
2) Interest in specific places of manufacture
3) Interest in specific makers
4) Interest in specific materials
5) Interest in artistic embellishments
6) Interest in the utility of the pieces
7) Interest in first examples of specific forms
8) Interest in fictional forms (e.g Klingon weapons)
9) Interest in historical forms (civil war, Roman period, Persian period)

The list goes on and on. What drives collectors isn't necessarily the knives themselves.

- Greg

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

There was some talk about involvement in the design process. Is that a factor?
I was surprised to learn that a majority of people buying custom knives want to participate in the design process.

Any thoughts?

I think that from a knifemakers perspective that is what makes you a "custom knife maker" vs a "knife maker."

I'm finding that every buyer likes to add input in the making of a knife they are commisioning. I really like that because I am making what they want.


As far as what makes someone a collector, I think you must have a higher appreciation of whatever you are interested in. I guess I'm a guitar collector, I have way more than I need but I cen never seem to turn down one I really like at a price I can afford.

A lot of people collect for the art aspect or enjoy functional objects they find well made or to their liking... knives have it all!

 

[Will Leavitt]

I think a better question may be "what does a custom knife buyer expect from me, the custom knife maker?"
Custom knife buyers fall into 1 of 2 categories for me. Someone that buys something I post or someone that orders. People that order usually want their input into the making of their knife. It is THEIR knife after all.

My dealings show most custom knife buyers see a custom knife they want but would rather have different handle material, they want something a little different in the handle shaping (usually larger or smaller). 2 of my common designs may explain this purchasing sequence for you. I made an EDK with a leather wrapped handle, I was contacted by someone that wanted the exact knife but with hemp, other orders either specify handle material and pinning options. I had a guy that loved my Lemon Cutter but wanted 3/8" of exposed tang and no taper, he left everything else up to me.

Generally if you're on my order list you've either given me the specifics or it's agreed that I contact you when it's time for me to start on your blade.

 

[Lorien]

^I was the guy that asked Will to make me a hemp wrapped EDK. Still have that knife, use it quite a lot for cutting leather actually, one of my favorite knives and one of the first to get me interested in becoming a collector of custom knives, or perhaps a patron of custom knife makers, which seems more accurate.

Because Will took my input and incorporated it into a knife, he can count me among his ongoing client list. If Will were to get in touch one day and tell me he wanted to make me a knife, I would figure out how to get some money together and start thinking about the design, because dealing with him was a pleasant experience and he did everything he said he would do and didn't try to gouge me on the price. The other knife makers I deal with, operate in the same manner.

A lot of the more distinguished collectors, well I'd refer to them as 'patrons'. They don't just buy a knife they like the look of, there needs to be something more. Face it, if you had 10-20K per year to spend on knives, you'd be pretty choosy about who's making them. You might be able to capture a 'body of work' by a maker whose combined value to some is priceless, especially if their work became famous due in part to the patron's support. The feeling of helping someone reach their potential is of great importance to many of the patrons of custom cutlery.

Knives I've bought on the secondary market, I got because the price was lower than it should have been for the knife in question- good value, and a knife I like, well it's hard to resist. I don't buy other stuff, all my clothes are falling apart and I don't drive, but knives are easy for me to justify buying, they will always have value.

Custom knives for serious patrons are NOT simply about knives, there is way more to it than the inanimate objects themselves. Even if you think the knives you make have enough 'soul' to stand on their own, they don't, you need to stand with them. They are all about you, and how you interpret the world. For a custom order, you are interpreting your patron's view of the world and if you can't deliver this through your work, then there will be another knife maker who can. Doesn't mean you won't sell knives, but it could mean they might not be 'custom' knives.

Here's some food for thought; some collectors are willing to put their name on a 5 year waiting list in order to guarantee that the maker in question will make them a knife. In most cases, the makers who have these lists honor their pricing given at the time of the order, and when the order comes around, contacts their collector and finds out what knife they want and how they want it- the process starts with communication and that is the key. That is what a lot of guys are paying for.

Many of these makers have established patterns that they rely on, and stick to them only changing up materials or type of finish, to the collector's tastes- constantly refining their patterns. Their collectors put a great value on their 'standard models'- Bob Loveless comes to mind.
Some makers switch up their designs regularly through their interaction with their collectors, and for them it is the long term relationship with their patrons that keep them in business and keeps their knives dynamic and exciting, and for that Tim Hancock comes to mind.
Very very few produce whatever it is they want almost, and are generally either guaranteed a sale every time, or to go hungry. This latter category is the true artists in the field, who would rather starve than compromise their vision. Maybe Virgil Englund is one of those guys. Others would have a better idea, I am no expert with that upper end stuff.
In fact I'm no expert with any of this stuff, but hopefully my observations will be useful to some.

 

[Will Leavitt]

One of the most important lessons my teacher taught me about knives is that it's easier to sell someone a second knife.

There are customers that fall more into the "patron" than the "customer" category. I know a maker whose "patron" will ask if he knows how to do "x", then he'll commission a knife with the intent of that maker learning that skill set. In my opinion, patrons are the valued people on your list that stretch your talents, you can contact them and say that you want to try something and one of your patrons will be interested in the work. Not that I make much distinction between customers and patrons.

I'm truly humbled that people are willing to spend their hard earned money to purchase a blade from someone like me. I've been selling knives for years and I'm always tickled and terrified when I ship a knife. The main thing I see about these fly by night guys that roll in and out of the craft is that they don't care that much. They make a few dollars and keep moving along. Never take for granted the sales, always ensure that YOUR customer/patron is happy. You may not hear about it from them but when you get to wondering about a knife that doesn't sell or several cancellations pop up on you then you'll know you abused the trust.

 

[Lorien]

also wanted to point out that it is in the patron's best interests that you keep making knives. You'll often see collectors tout their favourite makers regularly. No doubt this is due in large part to the collector sincerely wanting to see the makers he/she supports do well and be happy because there's a relationship there, but there is certainly a part of that which is motivated by the collector wanting his or her knives to 'hold their value'. Keeping a maker's name out there helps with the maker's impact on the market.

There are probably more people who start making knives, thinking that what they want to do, who end up doing something else, than there are those who stay with it. Buying a knife from someone who ends up quitting leaves you with only a knife, nothing more. That's what I meant when I referred to 'soul' in my last post.

Being a knife maker is a very hard path to follow as it is and building relationships with people who can not only buy knives from you, but help keep morale up is probably very important. It's all well and good to rely on other makers to help you with the morale up to a point, but the savage truth is that they are also your competitor, should you choose to make your living making knives.

 

[KnifeMaker.ca]

I like Lorien's distinction of a 'Patron'. On a less onerous standard, a collector could be anyone who has more knives than he needs.

To use myself as an example, I kind of like gentleman's folders. My McCusta would meet all my needs - from show off to utility - but I probably have another dozen or so, just because I like having them - and carrying them - and using them. My 'collection' isn't in a glass case. It's either in my sock drawer or my pocket. There are no expectations of appreciation or investment.

I guess I'm saying I think there are degrees. Am I a serious collector? No. Am I a respected collector? Well, not respected for my collection anyhow. Will I continue to acquire and use gentleman's folders? Yup.

Maybe it's a bit like being a knifemaker. Maybe it starts the day you present your first finished work to a friend - but hopefully, the progression never ends.

Rob!

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Thanks guys for your input. Very interesting to learn the buyer's side of knifemaking.

One thing I take from this is not to apply my own way of thinking to the buying process. I always thought of it this way. Let's say I want to buy a Bruce Bump knife. (Who doesn't. ) Well it is because I like HIS style not mine. I don't want a Patrice Lemée knife BUILT by Bruce Bump. Again this is not meant as a critique of others, just the way I would personally feel if I commissioned a knife.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

Thanks guys for your input. Very interesting to learn the buyer's side of knifemaking.

One thing I take from this is not to apply my own way of thinking to the buying process. I always thought of it this way. Let's say I want to buy a Bruce Bump knife. (Who doesn't. ) Well it is because I like HIS style not mine. I don't want a Patrice Lemée knife BUILT by Bruce Bump. Again this is not meant as a critique of others, just the way I would personally feel if I commissioned a knife.

Good point, I find that so far everyone that has contacted me about a knife mentioned that they wanted it to look like my style. It seems that handle material is the most popular custom request followed by different metal finishes for me so far.

I bet there are more than a few people that want a Lemee.

I'm finding that satisfying a customers needs is a whole aspect of knife making that I really enjoy. I'm a newbie maker and I feel I'm really pushing myself which I enjoy, it has really helped me as a maker. I won't try anything out of my comfort zone but I am pretty slow, I enjoy it all though.

 

[vba]

My father and a smidge of OCD.

Vin

 

[jonnymac44]

Cool thread, Patrice....

I'm still a new maker and still do quite a bit of buying of other makers' knives so I'd like to take a crack at this for ya.

A knife enthusiast might just buy a factory knife, or he may even buy a custom knife. A collector, on the other hand, will buy the custom knife and then buy two or three more customs very close to the original one purchased so that he can use one, save two in the safe, and then have two or three more on hand to sell if value goes up!

Collectors buy based on more than just persoanl visual appeal or utility. Will the knife increase in value? Is it in short supply? Is the buyer trying to amass a group of knives from a particular maker regardless of looks? Is the knife needed for bragging rights? Will the buyer regret it if he passes on the knife and then somebody else gets it? These are all questions that I think separate the collector from the casual buyer.

Casual buyers may truly love a knife to death and enjoy the hell out of it, but a collector, in my opinion, is somebody who is also very concerned with where the knife came from, who is the maker, what is his background, what is his work all about.........definitely more concerned with the whole package of information.

I could ramble on about this for many pages, but I'll stop here.

 

[CDHumiston]

Cool thread, Patrice....

I'm still a new maker and still do quite a bit of buying of other makers' knives so I'd like to take a crack at this for ya.

A knife enthusiast might just buy a factory knife, or he may even buy a custom knife. A collector, on the other hand, will buy the custom knife and then buy two or three more customs very close to the original one purchased so that he can use one, save two in the safe, and then have two or three more on hand to sell if value goes up!

Collectors buy based on more than just persoanl visual appeal or utility. Will the knife increase in value? Is it in short supply? Is the buyer trying to amass a group of knives from a particular maker regardless of looks? Is the knife needed for bragging rights? Will the buyer regret it if he passes on the knife and then somebody else gets it? These are all questions that I think separate the collector from the casual buyer.

Casual buyers may truly love a knife to death and enjoy the hell out of it, but a collector, in my opinion, is somebody who is also very concerned with where the knife came from, who is the maker, what is his background, what is his work all about.........definitely more concerned the whole package of information.

I could ramble on about this for many pages, but I'll stop here.

Good Ramble, that about sums up the difference to me. I guess I am an enthusiast, Where as I love knives and many different ones appeal to me. I just buy what I like. And what I can afford. I'm not buying hoping for future market value increases. I'm not out on a mission to own a certain style blade from a maker with all 50 different handle material available, etc...I just LOVE Knives!!!

 

[tryppyr]

A knife enthusiast might just buy a factory knife, or he may even buy a custom knife. A collector, on the other hand, will buy the custom knife and then buy two or three more customs very close to the original one purchased so that he can use one, save two in the safe, and then have two or three more on hand to sell if value goes up!

Gonna have to disagree with you there, Jonny. A true collector isn't thinking about selling anything. A collector COLLECTS. If they sell at all it is generally because a better example of exactly the same thing showed up and they want to upgrade the one in their collection. But even then, they are usually hesitant to sell.

I collect many things, most recently obsolete currency proofs. I have a small but increasingly important collection, which includes some duplicates in the area of my most focused interest (Bank of Knoxville proofs). Despite the fact that I have duplicates, it would put an indellible scar on my soul to part with any of those proofs. Given the opportunity (and the funding), I would own them all. That's how a collector thinks.

Selling is for dealers. Collecting is for people who would rather eat from a dumpster than sell.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

I bet there are more than a few people that want a Lemee.

That's too funny!

I am sure glad that I don't do this to earn a living because it all seems very complicated. What do you do when you don't feel right with the creative demands of the customer? Materials and size is one thing but what about changes on more profound design characteristics. As someone said on another thread, the creative process is not something that is turned on and off. Some days the juices are flowing and some days the well is completely dry. In the same way, when I work on a knife, I get ups and down. There are sometimes dry spells that seem to only turn around when I make a breakthrough on some part of the design. But the opposite is true. Something that doesn't turn out the way I like can kill the inspiration. So as you see, it's a fragile process (for me anyway) and the thought of complicating things by involving another individual is stressful.

Let me give you an example. I started work this week on a dagger, no wavy Persian stuff this time, a simple straight dagger. (Ok maybe not simple but straight at least. ) I had a basic blade shape profiled. But nothing more than that was coming to mind. Then yesterday, while leafing through a book of turn of the century art designs, WHAM! I saw something that instantly made me think of an interesting guard shape. Then the floodgates opened up in my head and I see all kinds of possible handle and pommels combinations. Let's say I was doing this with a customer and he rejected the guard. Well I would loose all that inspiration and everything that came from it. And as much as I know that it is a matter of taste, I could not help feeling frustrated even a little pissed if I am really excited about the design. What worries me is how to deal with it in a diplomatic manner that will not piss off the buyer too.

Anywho, these is just ramblings on my part. I am not trying to be modest or anything but realistically I'll never have “patrons”. Maybe sell a few knives here and there and share with the fine folks on here, my passion. :thumbup: