What really makes a smooth pivot/blade opening?

ToddM

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Oct 2, 1998
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What really makes a smooth pivot? It's not just tolerances, or bearings, or big washers.

I've owned only two brands of knives (no customs included) that I felt truly had "hydraulic" smooth pivots. All the Reeve knives I've owned were that way, and a recent Les George VECP. It's not just $, because I've had lots of BM/Spyderco/ZT's from general and Gold/Sprint/Limited production, Spartan, ZT 0777, Microtech Socom Elite, Hinderer, Strider, Tad Dauntless, and probably some others I can't remember and none of them have been even close in smoothness of my VECP and Reeve examples.

One thing I've noticed is that none of the bearing pivots I've tried have been as smooth as the smoothest washer systems I have handled. On average they were smoother than other washer pivot based production knives, but still can't compare to the VECP and Reeve.

Another thing I've noticed is that it seems most of the lack of smoothness of various knives does not come from the pivot itself, but from the detent ball interface with the blade, or perhaps the lock bar tension on the side of the blade. I wonder if different hardness/quality/roundness/polish on the detent ball itself can greatly impact this felt smoothness during blade opening. The Reeve uses larger washers, but the VECP does not. Perhaps it's the tolerances of all those things adding up to no binding in the system.

Sure that hydraulic fluid feeling smoothness has nothing to really do with the function of the knife during use, but I have to admit it's a feature I really crave in an expensive knife. After all most mid-techs don't have blade steel or lock ups that are any better than many $200 production knives (some you could debate are worse), so I feel a consumer should be getting that extra quality and fit/finish when you spend twice as much.
 
One thing is to measure the distance between liners at all points. I've found that knives with consistent liner seperation tend to get a better balance between smoothness and lockup.

What I usually do when installing barrel spacers on a BM knife (usually 710):

Taken knife apart, polish washers, reassemble with barrel spacers.
Take measurement of liner seperation at the pivot, as well as at the spacer locations, using calipers.
Take knife apart, and stone the spacers so that the gap at their locations matches the pivot.
Reassemble.

Be sure to record your measurements, and to stone the spacers evenly on both sides if they have a channel.

I did a review a while ago where I compared a 710 I did this to with my Sebenza and the 710 felt a tad bit smoother. Will link it in a second.

ETA:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1091011-Sebenza-vs-BM-710
 
Another thing I've noticed is that it seems most of the lack of smoothness of various knives does not come from the pivot itself, but from the detent ball interface with the blade, or perhaps the lock bar tension on the side of the blade. I wonder if different hardness/quality/roundness/polish on the detent ball itself can greatly impact this felt smoothness during blade opening.

This makes a big difference. I have seen great improvements from polishing the detent ball, and ceramic detent balls normally work very well. I have also tried polishing the flats of the blade, where the detent ball slides. This returned a substantial improvement as well.
 
"I wonder if different hardness/quality/roundness/polish on the detent ball itself can greatly impact this felt smoothness during blade opening. The Reeve uses larger washers, but the VECP does not. Perhaps it's the tolerances of all those things adding up to no binding in the system."

I have owned many of the knives that you mentioned, and agree that the CRK (primarily Sebenza) is the best that I've found. On two occasions, VECP v.1.5 (?) and a new Sebbie 25, I could barely overcome the stiff detent. I sold the 25 quickly; did NOT purchase the VECP, as it's ridiculous to carry a one-handed knife that you cannot operate easily. OTOH, my XM-18 3 1/2" Spanto had a dangerously-weak detent and left my home in a hurry. I could easily shake it open to full lock-up.
I carry a LBS Zaan and love it, but have not found smoothness to match my large Sebbies. I carry it, regardless, as I enjoy the blade design. Of course, the smoothest Sebbie, like butter, was an old used spider-trailed Classic that I sold in a fit of craziness. I do prefer the titanium-slabbed basic Sebbie, and older seems to be better, IMO, in terms of smoothness. That may hint of a relationship to wear(polish)...of the bronze washers, in the case of the Sebbies.
If one might liken this smoothness to include "other" mechanical devices, there was nothing to match the smoothness of an old Winchester model 12 trap gun that easily digested perhaps 60,000 rounds in my hands...after I purchased it used. It was a wonderful "BLACK-DIAMOND" trap model, that involved hand-polishing of all moving parts of the action prior to leaving the factory. That says "something" relevant to this conversation.
I have been impressed with an older YT video that involved deliberate sanding/polishing of the Sebenza washers, combined with constant micrometer measurements...until perceived "mathematical" perfection has been attained. That was reported, by jdavis882, to result in miraculous improvement of smoothness of the "action." And, I can believe it.
Sonnydaze
 
Minimizing friction between any points that contact any part of the blade is key.
 
Minimizing friction between any points that contact any part of the blade is key.

I can't agree with that I taken knives down and polished every interfacing part to a mirror polish and still had knives that weren't smooth. So it's not just polishing and lube.
 
I can't agree with that I taken knives down and polished every interfacing part to a mirror polish and still had knives that weren't smooth. So it's not just polishing and lube.

Friction is a simple equation, F = mu * N, where mu is the coefficient of friction and N is the normal force. Polishing and lubing reduces the coefficient of friction, but the normal force from the lock bar and from the pivot will still be there. Parallel contact is very important, because it will provide more consistent distribution of friction throughout the pivot. Perfect mirror polish and great lube won't help you enough if the lock bar is too strong, the pivot is too tight, and the faces aren't true to each other.
 
Friction is a simple equation, F = mu * N, where mu is the coefficient of friction and N is the normal force. Polishing and lubing reduces the coefficient of friction, but the normal force from the lock bar and from the pivot will still be there. Parallel contact is very important, because it will provide more consistent distribution of friction throughout the pivot. Perfect mirror polish and great lube won't help you enough if the lock bar is too strong, the pivot is too tight, and the faces aren't true to each other.

This.
 
Friction is a simple equation, F = mu * N, where mu is the coefficient of friction and N is the normal force. Polishing and lubing reduces the coefficient of friction, but the normal force from the lock bar and from the pivot will still be there. Parallel contact is very important, because it will provide more consistent distribution of friction throughout the pivot. Perfect mirror polish and great lube won't help you enough if the lock bar is too strong, the pivot is too tight, and the faces aren't true to each other.

I'd agree with that and say that I'd bet most of them are a lack of true faces. The lock bar can be some of it but my Reeve and Les George have what most people would consider too strong and still have ultra smooth opening. My guess is the tolerances and alignment of various parts simply do not allow even pressure distributed to the washers inducing friction regardless of the smoothness of the parts.
 
I'd agree with that and say that I'd bet most of them are a lack of true faces. The lock bar can be some of it but my Reeve and Les George have what most people would consider too strong and still have ultra smooth opening. My guess is the tolerances and alignment of various parts simply do not allow even pressure distributed to the washers inducing friction regardless of the smoothness of the parts.

Chris Reeve takes great pride in the ultra precise lapping of the handle slabs and blade, you're probably on to something there.
 
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