What steel are you guys using for chef's knives?

P

pjourn

Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
2
Let me first say thanks for all the answers I've gleaned from this forum by lurking over the last few years.
You guys are a treasure trove of knife making info.
So, onto the ask.
I have a fair amount of experience building slipjoints and small fixed blade knives. I've recently started trying to build some real chef's tools.
Previously, I've used some O1 and D2, but mostly I've used 1095 with good success.
So here's the problem. A long, thin knife in 1095 is giving me problems that I don't have with smaller blades. I'm getting warped blades too often and it seems like I'm spending too much time on warp correction.
Does anyone have suggestions for a better chef knife steel? In particular I'd like something that I can flat grind and not have so many warp issues. I'd prefer a carbon steel, but might consider a stainless if it was reasonable to heat treat.
Thanks in advance for ideas.
 
I like W2 and 52100. Both are nice fine grained carbon steels and hold an edge very well without chipping. I have yet to find a carbon steel that won't warp when flat ground really thin. The only way I know to get through that is to only grind the edge down to 30 thou or so before heat treatment. Alternate sides when grinding a thin wide blade, and don't let a lot of heat build up. Use sharp belts. When it warps in the quench, as it will do sometimes even with careful thermal cycling beforehand, do a series of shimmed tempers to correct that warp as necessary.

Carefully grind the hardened blade the rest of the way down to your target edge thickness of 5-10 thou or so.
 
I have used O1, 3V, CPM 154, Elmax, 440C, S35VN, and M4 for kitchen blades. I personally have only used the 3V in a finished knife as all the others were for orders, but 3V makes an incredible chef knife.
Follow all of Salem's tips for grinding, heat treat and straightening. Also remember that the edge NEEDS to be thin to be efficient.
 
CPM-S35VN for stainless blades. It is hard, tough, and works well. A satin finish is best. Often I just leave the parallel 120 grit grind lines.

For carbon blades, I prefer Hitachi White and Blue paper steel. Other favorite choices are suminagashi with a white paper core, and laminated Hitachi Blue or White steel with soft iron sides.

52100 makes superb blades when worked and HTed right. I find it very similar to Blue paper steel in the final edge and hardness.
 
Sorry to drift away from the OP's question about carbon steels... I've only used CPM-154 and Elmax so far. I think the key is a steel with fine grain that can achieve fairly high hardness. We have a bunch from which to choose. D2 is not a good candidate for a blade with fine grain/small carbides.

A lot of people are using AEB-L/13C26 stainless in kitchen (and other) knives and getting excellent results. As I understand it, the key to its success is the moderate amount of carbon (.67%); so it can get good and hard, but all the carbon is tied up with iron, leaving all the chrome (13%) "free" to protect from staining, instead of forming lots of large carbides. I'm told an important part of getting the best edge-retention with it is to use a deep quench or cryo cycle to deal with retained austenite. AEB-L has an added bonus of being very affordable.
 
AEB-L is similar to 440-B, and heat treats like 440-C. It makes a good kitchen knife, and will finish out at Rc58. The CPM steels and other high alloy steels can get harder. The final blade will cut as well, but the AEB-L blade will need re-sharpening sooner.
 
I have used 15n20 for a few and am very happy with the performance.

There are a lot of great choices, I want to try 52100 and CPM 154 for the next few. I have some A2 I will use also, not a common choice but I think it will be good.
 
oic0 said:
I just ordered some .110 x 2" x 48" for ~$35...
Click to expand...

You're still paying too much. PM me for a better source (it is not me or anyone I make money from).

bladsmth said:
AEB-L is similar to 440-B, and heat treats like 440-C. It makes a good kitchen knife, and will finish out at Rc58. The CPM steels and other high alloy steels can get harder. The final blade will cut as well, but the AEB-L blade will need re-sharpening sooner.
Click to expand...

That's pretty close to what other makers I respect have published or told me in private conversation...

Devin Thomas said:
Few know what AEB-L steel is, and those that do, only have heard that it is similar to 440B or 440A. The only similarities between AEB-L and 440B or 440A is the amount of carbon. The fact that AEB-L has only 12.8% chromium by weight compared to the 16-17% in 440A and 440B makes the steels quite different. AEB-L is more similar to a stainless 52100 than 440A. A copy of AEB-L called 13C26 is made by Sandvik.
Click to expand...
(^From Mr. Thomas' website FAQ page. There are some interesting micrographs of various alloys' grain structure there, too)

Clearly, the powder/high alloy steels will have better wear-resistance, with their higher hardness and small and finely-distributed moly and vanadium carbides. Part of my interest in it, and the reason I mention it here is that it should indeed be easier to hone/sharpen than other stainless steels, and that's often a selling point to folks who're accustomed to simpler carbon steels.

Stacy, do you have any thoughts on AEB-L's toughness/fine edge stability compared to favorites like CPM-154, S35VN, 52100, W2 etc? (I have not used any yet, still in the research phase right now).
 
One of the things that makes AEB-L so popular (I think) is that its so easy to sharpen for a stainless..I may be wrong but a lot of the lit Ive read puts the hardness at about 60 with a 350* temper???..That seems to be pretty close to my exp's with it..
 
AEB-L is a stainless hypo-eutectoid steel. It has around .65% carbon. All the carbon gets tied up with iron in the steel matrix, leaving the chromium as metallic chromium, and making it stain/rust resistant. It does not get extremely hard, and thus sharpens easily. It is fine grained, so it takes a good edge. It is not very tough, and the higher carbon and higher alloy steels are much tougher. One main attribute is easy availability and low price. As said, 13C26 is a Sanvik clone, available in Europe and many other places.
(440-A has the same amount of carbon as AEB-L, but more chrome. 440-B has a bit more carbon and chromium, 440-C, with .95% to 1.2% carbon, is equivalent to stainless 52100. 440-A/B work and performs as a knife about the same as AEB-L)

Comparing AEB-L to CPM-S35VN and the others you listed is not fair, as the higher grade steels will far out pace it. That does not make an AEB-L blade a bad blade, just a softer and less tough one. To put it in words most guys can understand, "Just because your wife isn't a Victoria Secrets Super-model, doesn't mean you don't like the way she looks."

I would suspect the bulk of the commercial kitchen knives are AEB-L or a similar 440 series alloy. Cutco uses 440-A. When you can't claim hardness or edge retention as being a major attribute, you hype the ones you have. AEB-L and similar steels are easy to sharpen, so that is used as a major selling point.
Many/most of the commercial knife blades from the knife suppliers are also these steels, or similar.



Now, for ease in making a kitchen knife quickly, there is pre-beveled thin bar stock in 440-B. I bought a bunch of it a while back, and made a batch of quick and cheap kitchen knives with black Micarta handles. The most expensive part of each knife was the HT. The next paragraph explains why I don't use these materials normally.

The point of making a custom, handmade knife is certainly not to try and imitate the commercial market. I can't compete with $10 fillet knives or $15 chefs knives. What I can offer my customer is a far superior blade metal with a top notch HT. The people who understand that will pay from $70 to $700 for a custom Kitchen knife.
 
Thanks so much for all the thoughts. I'd like to try some of the stainless steels, but getting my kiln much above 1650F is tough. I've been using the the shim, temper, shim temper method for when I do get warping, but it's time eating.
I have tried normalizing before and after grinding but I'm still getting enough warping to make me want to throw in the towel on 1095 for chef knives.
I really like 1095 for my other work, but the warping on the chefs is killing me!
 
Stacy, AEB-L, particularly in blades made by folks like Devin Thomas, is actually a Preferred steel amongst the hardcore kitchen knife guys and they would not buy a knife that was only 58RC. I think that 61 is more like the minimum hardness that you will find even on the "mid tech" AEB-L knives from folks like Mark Richmond.
As for me, I have used W2 and 1084/15N20 Damascus so far and I am currently working on a couple of 115W8 kitchen blades.
 
I was checking out Aldo's site; one reviewer had this to say -

One of the best push cut steels out there. If you grind this steel to a thin edge and mirror polish it down to a micron or sub micron edge (its possible with 10,000+ grit waterstones) You have a steel that retains the cutting ability of carbon steels with the stain resistance of stainless. This is not a super steel , its a very specific steel that excels very well at what it does. Its a razor blade steel , you will not cut nails in half with this steel , but you can cut hairs , tomatos , and other softer things for years with extreme confidence. To maximize its potential you need to do research the heat treating and how to get the edge thin enough to take advantage of the k2 carbides.

I plan on using it more in the kitchen, I have an email out to Peter's HT to see how hard they can get it.
 
Ive only played with a few kitchen type blades. So far Ive used 1095 and 52100 both from Aldo. The 52100 is great steel and seems to really hold an edge. Ive gotten great results with aldos stuff. Ive broken a few blades made from it and the grain was excellent. Very fine (to the naked eye). Ofcourse I am limited to these types of steels due to my rudimentary HT setup (forge with temp display and parks 50).
 
I would never buy a knife made from AEB-L/13C26 that was HRC 58. This hardness means the knifemaker did not correctly heat treat the steel.

If you heat treat AEB-L/13C26 like 440C you are not getting the most from the steel. Devin Thomas says you have to babysit AEB-L during heat treatment to get the best performance. Devin goes from the oven, to quench plates, and then to liquid nitrogen while the blade is still warm. Do not let the blade sit for an hour or more. Soak in liquid nitrogen for about 15 minutes. Pull the blade and let it warm to room temperature. This will result in a blade hardness of HRC 63-64. Start the tempering cycles. I asked the Uddeholm metallurgist about Devin's heat treat process and they confirmed he was doing everything required to get the most from the blades.

We have a small AEB-L slicer made by Devin Thomas. The hardness is HRC 62. This knife gets used more than any other knife in our kitchen. It holds an excellent edge, does not chip and is easy to resharpen. This knife outperforms customs made with S30V, CPM154 and S35VN. I would not have believed it until I saw it with my own eyes. If you get a chance to buy a knife from Devin I highly recommend them.

Chuck
 
I love AEB-L/13C26 and have NO problem getting it to HRC-61-62. I agree with Chuck, these steels make an EXCELLENT knife in this hardness range. I also "babysit" these steels during H/T. I go from plates to a water quench -freeze -temper -water quench - 2nd freeze - 2nd temper - water quench.
 
I have used 15N20, CPM154, S35VN and A2. All seem to work well.
 
I didn't mean to drift this thread into an AEB-L discussion, my apologies to the OP.

I was referring to the commercial blades made from AEB-L done with standard bulk batch HT and temper are often around Rc58. In my more detailed explanation of AEB-L I tried to explain what it is, why it works fairly well, and what advantages it has commercially.

I agree, with care in a single blade HT and immediate cryo, it can be pushed higher. As I said in the post, there is nothing wrong with an AEB-L blade.

I also pointed out that a custom maker can make a much better blade than a commercial blade. That is why Devin and others have loyal customers. Their AEB-L knives are not the same as a Cutco knife....by far!



That said, I personally would prefer a custom kitchen blade in stainless made from CPM-S35VN with an optimal HT over the same blade in AEB-L. I am sure with the HT done to the max both would be superb blades, but I just like the extra toughness of S35VN.
 
I agree with Bladsmth. While new to knifemaking, I have seen customer perception influencing sales in several other fields I have played with. Even if you could have 2 identical performing blades, a customer will be more likely to pay extra for the "more exotic" material.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top