What steels are more durable?

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fields_mj

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I'm going to make a knife for camping, and I'd like to use a durable steel to minimize the chances of chipping or breaking the blade when it gets abused. Can anyone give me some direction in this area? I intend on sending the blades out to be heat treated since I don't have an oven.

Thanks,
Mark
 
8670 is a tough steel (RC 59) it’s cheap, available in a wide variety of sizes and easy to grind. AKS always have a good supply on hand.
 
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Im no steel expert but remember that heat treat effects durability as well. If you run a steel super hard it wont be as resilient as the same steel ran a point or two softer. Finding a durable carbon steel like 1095 will be cheaper than a durable stainless like cpm154. Either way good luck.
 
Any steel can be very durable to abuse but I would pick AEBL. Too soft the edge rolls and too hard it chips. But the other thing about softer steel is that it will suffer more fatigue and eventually a chunk of steel will break off.

If you look at competition choppers, look at what steel and what hardness they use. They use the blades hard and even the best blades don't last more than a couple years. Eventually the steel fatigues and suffers edge blowouts. The high hardness helps with durability in this regard, though there are limits in order to keep good toughness.
 
I would pick a steel that matches your equipment and abilities. Most any blade steel will be tough if the HT is done right.
1084, 5160 ( very tough), AEBL. There are many other tough and more expensive steels, but these will all make a great camp knife.

I often compare this question to that of a young fellow asking, "I am ready to start dating, who would be a nice pretty girl to ask out?"
My reply would be, "Well, Heidi Klum or Adriana Lima are really pretty and very nice girls … but you would be better to determine which girls you are able ask out. There may be a pretty girl next doo that is a wonderful date, or one at school. She may not be as exciting or famous as a super-model, but she also may be a better companion for you ( and certainly more affordable), and in many cases, just as pretty."
 
Thanks for all the recommendations.

So, from the list (8670, 5160, AEBL, CPM154, M4, D2, S90V), which steel produces the most durable edge while maintaining edge retention? Are any of them goining to retain an edge better than O1 blade thats 60 Rc? If so, is there anything special that needs to be done (HT, surface finish, ect) to get those results?

Thanks again,
Mark
 
fields_mj said:
Thanks for all the recommendations.

So, from the list (8670, 5160, AEBL, CPM154, M4, D2, S90V), which steel produces the most durable edge while maintaining edge retention? Are any of them goining to retain an edge better than O1 blade thats 60 Rc? If so, is there anything special that needs to be done (HT, surface finish, ect) to get those results?

Thanks again,
Mark
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First you wanted the most durable now you want it to be durable while having good edge retention. You need to decide what you are looking for first.
 
Read Larrins papers on toughness. While considered very tough for what they are your list starts to fall off at 154 CM and M4 and then at D2 and s90v goes to not tough at all. That end of the pool is for high edge retention knives that are typically used for smaller high edge retention knives and are not regarded as tough. The middle ones are at times used for large knives but are specifically designed for toughness when used for hard use knives.

All of those first steels are tough. They are also less expensive and that's a plus but that's not why they are used. They are less expensive because there is a large demand for them and done right compared to off the shelf knives they will give both toughness and better edge retention. I don't have a lot of experience with it yet but A2 could fit in there as well. Our main supply sources are Aldo the NJ steel Baron and AKS, Pops has A2 and it's where many get their belts.
 
fields_mj said:
What kind of fool wants a knife that doesn't hold an edge???
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Knives used for chopping and prying alone do not benefit from wear resistance or “edge holding.” If the knife is intended for a combination of tasks then you want a more balanced steel. In that case you do not ask, “Which steel is the toughest” while assuming everyone knows that you mean a balanced steel that scores a little higher on the toughness scale. Come up with the list of attributes that are most important and then look for the steels that come closest to fulfilling those properties. For example, you did state that you want to send the blades out for heat treating, which means air hardening steels are probably more desirable since more independent heat treating services are able to handle them. But there are many other properties such as potential hardness, easy in sharpening or finishing, edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc. If in your next post you said, “What kind of fool wants a knife that will rust?” or “What kind of fool can’t keep a knife from rusting?” those would be more examples of assumptions you made about everyone understanding what you are looking for when in reality you were not specific enough, or did not give enough thought to the set of properties you are looking for.
 
You should read Larrin's new website which is a treasure trove of information. There are some articles on wear resistance.

When I go camping, I actually bring 2 knives, a big knife and a small knife. The big knife is for chopping down trees for firewood and for building shelter. The small knife is for finer woodworking, cutting food, starting fires. Both of them are primarily used for cutting wood and wear resistance is just not useful here. Instead, you want a good combination of hardness and toughness for the best cutting, most durable edges.
 
Check out this destruction test thread of an 8670 blade I made for a customer at bushcrafterUSA forum.

I seem to click well with Alpha Knife supply 8670. It is affordable, comes in variety of thicknesses (my one knock on 15N20 is lack of thicknesss >0.130"), fits within my heat treat toolkit, machines easy before HT and grinds well after. It finishes easy with machine/hand sanding. It doesn't take an acid etch as dark as other steels and doesn't get as sharp as my experience with Elmax.

Overall, it seems to strike an affordable balance of toughness/edge hold.

I'd made him a small one out of 0.170" Alpha Knife Supplied 8670. He liked it and ordered a custom design, bigger with a finger groove. I made it for him, but overground the belly of the blade and the final profile wasn't to the original drawing. I gave him his money back immediately and started working on a replacement.

In the meantime I told him to keep the first one and torture test it. He broke it but it took quite a bit of effort.

The heat treat on this 8670 was based on past threads by Willie and co: 1525F 10 minute soak, quench in Canola, 2x1hr 350 temper. I don't have a hardness tester, only the crude files.


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First of all, let me apologize for coming across as a jerk (it's a gift I have). In my book, prying and chopping are for pry bars and axes. Knives cut. If a knife is used only for prying and chopping doesn't usually get classified as a knife in my book. I get what you're saying, though. My point is that for a cutting tool, edge retention is always a consideration. It may be way down on the list because of the way the tool is intended to be used, but it's on the list.

To your point, I should have given more information on what I want to do with the knife. I was trying to keep the post short because I tend to get long winded. I'm planning on making a knife with a 4-1/2" blade. The profile will be similar to a clip point. After HT, I will likely give the bevels a slight convex profile because I've been happy with the performance that shape has provided me with in the past. I have a couple of 01 blades that I made almost 20 years ago. I've been very happy with them compared to any "off the shelf" knife I've ever used. They were tempered in an oven at 400 degrees. At the time, I was surprised that the temperature was high enough to turn the blades a deep shade of blue. I was expecting more of a straw color. I'd like this knife to be more durable than my 01 blades. If an alloy exists that will give me more durability with similar edge retention, that would be ideal. I'm not sure that such an alloy exists. If it does, I'm willing to spend the money and take the time to do it right.

I don't need to chop wood with a knife. I have several mauls, axes, hatchets, saws, and even a couple of machetes that can work for this if I need them too. When camping, I take a boys axe and a manual chain saw to deal with firewood. I also don't put much value in the "destructive" tests that people do. Putting a blade in a vice and using a cheater bar to destroy it has no real world significance to me.

I'm surprised that D2 and M4 are not considered to be very tough. I've worked in a lot of machine shops and seen a lot of stamping dies made out of both. I know the design is DRASTICALLY different between a die and a knife blade, so I get it. Just surprises me.

Looks like I need to do some research on 5160 and 8670. IIRC, old Buck knives were made from 5160 (could be totally wrong here). My dad has a couple of old buck knives, and those were impressive. It has been said that you could use one to cut through bolts.

Thanks for all the info!
 
M4 is about in the middle for toughness. The large carbides that give D2 it's edge retention ( a mediocre edge by the way) also make it one of the weaker blade steels.
 
I think 5160 and 8670 are overkill for toughness. If you are looking for edge retention I would not pick them.
 
Honestly, you are overthing this.
Use a good blade steel and do the HT for a sharp and tough blade.

1084 to 1095 will be fine. 52100 or W2 would aslo be good.

Fully harden 1084/1095/W2 at the higher range for toughness, or go to the lower side for sharpness (1450F for sharp/1490 for tough). I get the best of both around 1470F.
Temoer at 400F and test the edge.If you like it as is, fnish the knife. If it is chippier than you want, re-temper at 425F. You could go up to 450F if you want even more toughness. The difference in hardness is only a point or two between 400 and 450.
 
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I think part of your problem is that you are using non standard terminology. For what its worth a camp knife is usually a large heavy bladed knife with a blade that is usually over 8" with 10" to 12" being common. It is often heavy bladed with 3/16" being close to a minimum. Then when you say durable it implies that the knife will be abused or used hard as camp knives are. They more or less take the place of a hatchet while being able to be like a ultra rugged chef knife. The also are commonly batoned through wood in order to get some dry kindling. What you are describing is more or less something like a bushcrafter. They do most of the same task other than heavy chopping. Basically the same steels work well for both. If you are going to send your knife out then AEB-L will give you better toughness and probably similar edge retention as 01 and its stainless. S90v and D2 are both low toughness steels and are great for EDC use and really shine when you are cutting abrasive stuff like carpet or cardboard. S90v is just in a whole different category for how long it will cut those materials. Like Stacy said that's not what you are trying to cut in the woods. In my experience they really don't hold a good edge all that long and they don't get great edges easily. S90v is probably best sharpened with diamonds and so is M4. They are full of carbide that is harder than aluminum oxide stones. M4 is a awesome steel but probably not easily used by a beginner and along with s90v pretty much impossible to shape hard without a lot of ceramic belts. If you want something fancy 3V is very popular for that type of knife. I have some test knives in progress but haven't used it. There you have it something like 5160 for a tough old fashioned carbon steel, AEB-L for a awesome stainless that get crazy sharp really easy and 3v for a new hyper steel. Hope it helps. The guys here are choosing both the steel and heat treatment to optimize the blades for very specific uses. If you want a good recommendation you have to give them specific questions.
 
As Stacy said, I think you're overthinking this. Get yourself some of Aldo's 1084 and make a knife out of it. You can easily learn to heat treat this yourself in a forge, and you will end up with a wonderful blade. I use a kiln now, but I have heat treated dozens on 1084 blades by eye; it is such a forgiving steel that even then, my test blades would always have beautiful grain––just a smooth gray powder with no discernible grains. It is a tough steel that takes a wonderfully fine edge. With the right geometry, it will do pretty much anything you want. It's sort of a "jack of all trades" steel, which fits well with the jack-of-all trades nature of a camp knife. Just my $.02
 
I'm not going to argue the overthinking. It's what I do best.... Then again, isn't the subject of "best knife steel for X" an exercise in over thinking anyway?

The comment about terminology makes perfect sense. Yes, more of a Bushcraft knife. I'm not opposed to 1085, 1090, 1095, or 5160, but how are any of them discernibly different than O1? Everything I can find so far would indicate that O1 is at least equal to plain high carbon steel.

I don't have a forge or a kiln. My only means of heating is charcoal brickets. With a decent fire in one of my 6" rocketrstoves, I can fill the chimney with charcoal, add a small fan to feed air, and get O1 to nonmagnetic pretty easy. That works okay for O1 and high carbon steels, but obviously doesn't give me the control I need for a proper HT. This is why I plan on sending the blade out for HT, which then opens the door up for using other (better?) steels.
 
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