what steels can we do without?

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Sep 19, 2001
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Seems to me that we have way too many steels. Yes, choice is good, but there seems to be redundancy, or obsolete choices out there. Now, obsolete doesn't mean old, just that the performance of a certain steel isn't any better than a comparable one, the steel might be new-ish to the knife market.

For me, S60V isn't useful. I think that's a pretty safe choice, it isn't getting used much now :p 154CM could probably go away without leaving a hole either. A little more bothersome would be to choose a carbon steel we don't need, I don't use them much. Though I don't know if we need more than 52100 and L6.
 
Every steel has it's fans. I think the only steels worth getting rid of are those no name pot steels you find in flea market specials coming out of Pakistan. 420 series steels too for the most part, unless you do it right like Buck does. If you tried to get rid of 1095 though, I'd be pissed.
 
Bobwhite said:
Every steel has it's fans. I think the only steels worth getting rid of are those no name pot steels you find in flea market specials coming out of Pakistan. 420 series steels too for the most part, unless you do it right like Buck does. If you tried to get rid of 1095 though, I'd be pissed.

You and me both. :mad: I could ALMOST get rid of all stainless and just go with carbon blades. Note... I said almost:foot:
 
hardheart said:
For me, S60V isn't useful.
And S60V isn't made anymore, either.

As for steels we could do without, of course we could, but variety is the spice of life. And of course, there are so many makers with their story to tell about their amazing proprietary steel, life wouldn't be as interesting without those.
 
I wouldn't want to "do without" any of these, but to me 154CM, ATS-34, VG-10, BG-42, and S30V might as well be called the same thing. I know they have differences, but to me, they are high-end stainless steels that hold a good edge for a long tim, but are somewhat brittle. *I* don't notice the differences in my knife uses.

And, personally, I prefer D2 to all of them. So if they ceased to exist, and all of the knives make with them were made with the similar, but IMO, slightly better steel known as D2, I wouldn't cry.

I could do without 420. 1095 can be just as cheap, and I would prefer it almost always. Most knives made in 420 are way below my radar anyways. 420HC can be good.
 
Hair said:
I wouldn't want to "do without" any of these, but to me 154CM, ATS-34, VG-10, BG-42, and S30V might as well be called the same thing. I know they have differences, but to me, they are high-end stainless steels that hold a good edge for a long tim, but are somewhat brittle. *I* don't notice the differences in my knife uses.

And, personally, I prefer D2 to all of them. So if they ceased to exist, and all of the knives make with them were made with the similar, but IMO, slightly better steel known as D2, I wouldn't cry.

I could do without 420. 1095 can be just as cheap, and I would prefer it almost always. Most knives made in 420 are way below my radar anyways. 420HC can be good.

I'm with you but the 420s and low 440s are used a lot of times as outer layers of laminate blades. As long as theres one of those left to toughen some alien steel laminate blades I wouldnt cry. It wouldnt be ideal but from what lines my pockets its the right end of the spectrum.

What are axe heads gennerally made of?
 
Axe heads are made from many different steels but all are usually low alloy medium carbon steels such as 1045, 5160 and bandsaw steels. The japanese ones are usually laminated with an edge which has a much higher carbon content and a head body which has a much lower carbon content.

-Cliff
 
As a knife steel, S60V is dead, but my 440V/S60V Military blade is still the only blade I have that stabilizes with a final edge bevel of 25 degrees included for cutting materials up to hardwoods. My D2, S30V, VG10, BG42 and ATS34 blade bevels require a minimum of 30 degrees included for edge-stability for the same cutting tasks.

I wouldn't miss ATS34 at all.

I prefer BG42 over S30V, D2 and VG10. BG42 blade performance is essentially equal, but it's easier to sharpen and maintain. I missed this steel when it was popular (Chris Reeve, Buck, SOG). Spyderco's BG42 Military blade was a revelation for me.
 
If you really wanted to trim down steels you could reduce the list to; S7, M2, H1, AEB-L, ZDP-189. These are very clearly task defined steels and it is difficult to seriously outperform them where they excell.

As Hair noted, many of the steels offered in knives are in the same class and offer pretty much the same performance. There is such a wide variety because variety itself sells, plus what steel is used depends signficantly on where the knife is made.

-Cliff
 
hardheart said:
S7 and H1 are pretty clear, but what are the differentiating tasks among the other 3?
AEB-L is a steel with extremely fine carbide size, which makes it a very easy to sharpen and maintain steel, with good edge retention and toughness to go with it, a good steel for the average user, IMO. Alternatives include other variations on the same formula, and possibly CPM-154, depending on what specific properties you're looking for.

ZDP-189 gives a high wear resistance, high hardness steel, an alternative would be S90V, though S90V can't get much harder than 62 Rc.

M2 I suppose gives a high wear, high hardness tool steel, with considerably greater toughness than ZDP-189. IMO, CPM-M4 would be a better choice due to greater toughness and wear resistance, though the M2 is easier to sharpen and cheaper.

S7 is a super tough steel for extreme applications. IMO, S5 would be a better choice (tougher and harder), with 5160, L6, 3V, and 1V as possible higher wear alternatives, it depends on the amount of toughness needed, the maker might want to use one of the alternatives with higher wear resistance if desired, and if the reduction in toughness isn't too much.

Edit: Oops, that's four, I forgot that you said H1 and S7.
 
Gee guys,
eliminating everything but a few premium steels may be great for folks with large wallets or those whose main hobby is knives, but some of us are looking for decent steel at a price that still lets us take the kids to the movies. I've had good luck with knives made from 440C and ATS-34/154CM. And the price for knives with these steels has been in the $40-$60 range for a US made knife. (Took some shopping to find them.) That's about as much as some of us can afford. Leave some steel for the rest of us, please.
 
hardheart said:
S7 and H1 are pretty clear, but what are the differentiating tasks among the other 3?

M2 has a high edge stability for its wear resistance. It works well in knives which are made to cut well and stay very sharp and still offer high edge retention for those who use knives with significantly worn edges. If you don't need the latter ability then you are better off with a W series steel because the edge stability will be higher plus they are much cheaper and easier to heat treat and grind. M2 will also of course have higher corrosion resistance so works better for butchers. It is also available for very low cost in the form of power hacksaw blades so it is ideal to make knives out of because all you need is an angle grinder and you can make a knife which basically defines a standard of performance.

AEB-L basically is a stainless version of the W series tool steel and offers similar characteristics; a very high edge stability and thus extreme initial sharpness and strong high sharpness edge retention. It has slightly lower hardness and much higher corrosion resistance. Thus it would make a much better kitchen knife than a W series steel in most cases because corrosion tends to take the fine edge of W series steels very quickly. I can put a fine shaving edge on such a knife for example and after preparing just one meal the fine shaving edge is gone due to corrosion from acidic foods.

AEB-L however has a relatively low wear resistance (compared to high wear steels) and thus if you sharpen infrequently or use your knives rougher (statically, not dynamically) and thus prefer thicker profiles you can gain better edge retention with ZDP-189 which has a very high wear resistance for a stainless steel.

There are many alternatives to those steels, the ones I listed are easy to obtain in current high quality knives and they all are so balanced so as to sharpen very well when used for their types of knives. However S90V isn't an alternative to S90V for several reasons; sharpening, heat treatment, hardness and CPM-154CM/RWL34 is in no way an alternative to AEB-L. Those steels would be a low wear alternative to ZDP-189.

There are also many steels which are inbetween the extremes of those steels, or offer superior performance in one way for a decrease in another, but these gains are usually small and as Cashen is fond of noting, very significant in a lab, not likely to be noted by a user. The differences in those five steels steels I listed however are very large and you would never confuse one for another. I have been meaning to add some of this to the knife materials page and regroup the steels by the class of knife they work well in, as right now they are basically by family name which isn't overly useful and it presents a much too complicated picture.

In reality there are only a few small groups of knife steels/materials and just alternatives in those groups or inbetweens. For example, A2 is tougher than M2 but more brittle than S7, and has a lower hardness and wear resistance than M2 but is harder and more wear resistant than S7. So if your M2 blades are chipping then you would first try A2 before jumping all the way to S7. Similar if your S7 knives were rolling or just seeing excessive wear than you might want to try A2 before moving to M2. There are also steels which can jump classes depending on how they are hardened. For example bandsaw steels can reach 66 HRC and thus work well similar to M2 for a high cutting sharpness steel, but then be bainite hardened to 56/58 HRC and compete with S7 for a tough utility steel.

In general, though this isn't a good idea because if you try to mangle the heat treatment so the steel jumps class then you usually have to give up way too much of everything else to get the desired properties. Though you can usually move the steel around in its class to optomize them a little one way or the other. Generally though again you are talking about small changes which are far smaller than the class changes.

-Cliff
 
thx, Larrin & Cliff. That was kinda what I was thinking about the steels, just wanted to make sure they weren't significantly more different than I had thought. Different, to be sure.

knarfeng said:
Gee guys,
eliminating everything but a few premium steels may be great for folks with large wallets or those whose main hobby is knives, but some of us are looking for decent steel at a price that still lets us take the kids to the movies. I've had good luck with knives made from 440C and ATS-34/154CM. And the price for knives with these steels has been in the $40-$60 range for a US made knife. (Took some shopping to find them.) That's about as much as some of us can afford. Leave some steel for the rest of us, please.

Really, if any of these steels were used in more knives, economies of scale would take care of your pricing concerns. There is the $40 S30V Native, and the sub-$80 ZDP Spydies. AEB-L/13C26 can be had on the Storm for less than $30. BG-42 for around $50 on a SOG Autoclip folder (though now disco'd). D2 Queens, BMs, and Kabars don't command premium prices. These were some choices of posters in this thread. Look at Cold Steel San Mai, 420 and AUS8. Look at the prices for their micarta handled san mai folders. Now look at the Williamn Henry ATS34/ZDP189 laminates. What are you paying for? The steel shouldn't double the price, I don't see how it could affect variable costs that much.
 
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