What stones before going to diamond

David Martin

David Martin

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I have been curious about guys on this forum writing how diamond stones work much faster.
So, I'm wondering what sharpening stones were you using prior to going to diamond? Type of
grit and size? Thanks, DM
 
I used Shapton Glass 6K 8K 16K,Nubatama Platinum's 150 320 600 1K 3K and Bamboo 6K but I do like the Platinum's better but they are only available up to 3K,I have also used the Grinderman stones I have the full set that came with my Tsprof witch are alright for what they,I also like the Chosera stones and I used them with my KME and I'm going to get a set for my Tsprof as well that has 400,600,1000,3000,5000,10000
I also have Suehiro G8 8K 10K and 20K and I was just to told by Konstantin that my Rika 5K Cerax 6K Norton 4K have also shipped out,I also have Sigma Power Select 6 10 and 13K.

I think one problem is that people see me posting about the Venev stones and also more recently about the Metallic Bonded CBN stones and they don't stop think about any negatives of using those stones and only the positives to using these stones and I'm partly to blame because I have mainly only talked about how fast the Metallic CBN and Venev stones cut and I know your not pointing the finger at me David I'm just saying.

For example from I have found the Venev stones work really good and do a good at sharpening any steel you put in their path,you do get a scratch pattern from them that you do not get when using straight water stones do not leave I do not find the scratch pattern that bad at all for my likes and if a person wanted to they can use a water stone of similar grit to go over it again to remove the scratch's.

With Metallic Bonded CBN they do not have any polishing effect because it is tin and copper holding the CBN in place witch is basically a synthetic diamond and they do tend to leave some pretty good scratchs at the lowest 50 grit stone I have and the higher grit's to tend to refine the scratch's and smooth out the edge,the main reason I got these stones was because I was sick of wasting so much time on S110v with water stones.

I like both stones and each does one thing better that the other does not,I will always use water stones because I sometimes like a more refined edge and sometimes I like a more toothy edge,I also like to use a water stone on S110v after I have used the highest grit CBN stone and use a water stone to refine the edge just a bit.
 
The diamond stuff on plates cuts the fastest.

it's as simple as that

but it's a big trade off so I don't use them.

They wear out fast and leave horrible finishes compared to other stones at the same grit.


I prefer the diamond water stones because it's a longer lasting stone, better finish and it gives me a crisper edge on high alloy steels without the deep horrible scratches on the diamond plates. Best of both worlds in some cases. Not perfect.

I wish Gritomatic would make a benchstone in metallic bond CBN but it's not in the cards for now.

The hard abrasive can be superior to alumnia and SiC in some cases on some steels because you get less burnishing and plowing, more cutting.

But it's all about user proficiency at the end of the day.

We can give someone $10,000 worth of stones and equipment but they won't sharpen better then someone who knows what they are doing with a cement brick.
 
I would have to say the Metallic Bonded CBN cut's faster then a diamond plate,what has me wondering is once the CBN that is above the surface of the Copper Tin bond if it will keep cutting once it is flush.I would like to see more water stone's with diamond or CBN mixed in with them but for them to be a bit harder stone and not to soft so they don't wear out to fast.I'd like to see something just a bit softer then a Venev stone but thicker with diamonds mixed in with it.

From what I understand about the Metallic Bonded Diamond and CBN is that those were not special for Gritomatic it just happened that they made 1x6 inch diamond and CBN in the metallic bond,these are more for use for mold makers and stuff like that where if they have to fix a mold and are afraid to machine anymore metal off the mold incase they go to far and when they use something like this they can go slower and not have to worry about removing to much metal.I know a machinist and showed him my set I got in and he said he had used the diamonds before not for mold making but ,old repair where metal was wielded in and machined down and he did not get it right and left 1 or 2 thou to much metal on the mold or something like that and was worried he remove to metal and have to over again so he finished it by hand.


DeadboxHero said:
The diamond stuff on plates cuts the fastest.

it's as simple as that

but it's a big trade off so I don't use them.

They wear out fast and leave horrible finishes compared to other stones at the same grit.


I prefer the diamond water stones because it's a longer lasting stone, better finish and it gives me a crisper edge on high alloy steels without the deep horrible scratches on the diamond plates. Best of both worlds in some cases. Not perfect.

I wish Gritomatic would make a benchstone in metallic bond CBN but it's not in the cards for now.

The hard abrasive can be superior to alumnia and SiC in some cases on some steels because you get less burnishing and plowing, more cutting.

But it's all about user proficiency at the end of the day.

We can give someone $10,000 worth of stones and equipment but they won't sharpen better then someone who knows what they are doing with a cement brick.
Click to expand...
 
Before diamonds I had Norton Crystolon,India, and various Arkansas stones and some hard Spyderco type stones from Garrett Wade.
Got my first diamond stones in probably early to mid 90’s.

They are pretty beat but I still have them, a paddle set of EZ Laps and a course DMT 6”.

I never used these on knives though as I worked in a cabinet shop then and diamonds were a must for all the carbide tipped stuff.

It is rare that I put a knife to a diamond plate even now but I do like using the diamond compounds.
 
will, I'm like you and got my first diamonds in the early 90's. Before then I was using SiC and Norton India stones. The diamonds worked faster
when they were new but as they were used they slow down in cutting. To the point that all these stones were on a level playing field. But I liked the finish left by the India and SiC stones. Plus, they offered much better economy... But some struggle cutting high vanadium carbides.
Gritomatic emailed me and said they would be putting out a metallic bonded CBN stone 7.88"X 2.75" in 5-600 grit by this summer. DM
 
I find with diamonds in general if the use poly diamonds they will wear out faster but cut faster then a Mono diamond,a Polycrystalline has more edge's and facet's and the corners wear down fast but the Mono diamond is more like a slab and is flat although they do not cut as fast they last longer witch has been my finding's.
 
I had a cheap Arkansas stone I bought as a kid that never got my knives sharp. Always had knives growing up, and I tried but never really learned to sharpen. Once I started getting into higher end knives about 12 years ago, I think I started with a pull thru sharpener (ahhh!) and once I got on here(Bladeforums, thanks Spark!), I transitioned to diamonds. Only after I started getting respectable edges did I venture into waterstones, and ceramics, and SiC and India stones.
 
Ok, thanks gents. The metallic bonded CBN is on my list and when it comes out I'll work with it and see it's characteristics. DM
 
Hey David,

While I'm still using diamonds a lot, I think for rough work, the SiC rough stones are faster for me because I can use as much pressure as I want, but with diamonds I have to be careful to avoid tear out. I'm using a cheap SiC stone that I got in the tool section of Home Depot. Having said that, I'm interested to see how you like the CBN stones. Please let us know what you think, thanks!
 
sodak, thanks, I will. I'll say up front-- if you have been using SiC stones for some time and then go to diamond... Be Very careful. Because you'll tend to use too much pressure and prematurely wear down your diamond stone. At least with the coarse and fine. The x coarse can take more. I've not used any other stone that cuts as fast as my ACE Hardware coarse black SiC stone, in 80 grit. Plus, it was a Very good purchase with my reward points. I wish I could find another.
I reprofiled a s30v blade on my JUM-3 a large 120 grit SiC stone. Then did a blade using the ACE stone. Ha- the difference was night and day. DM
 
Interesting. Do you think the increase in cutting speed was due to the difference in grit, or was the ACE SiC more agressive in some other way? Secret “black” material or different binder?
 
If you do decide to go with the Metallic Bonded CBN you be to more pressure then you would on a Diamond plate but at the same time if you want a nice refined edge don't use anymore pressure then you need to,I have the Metallic Bonded CBN and even with steels like S110v you do not need to use a lot of pressure I just use a very little bit of extra pressure and that's it for sharpening S110v and other softer steel's you do not need to use hardly any extra pressure you have to use a bit but not a lot.

I also use a K02 and I don't freehand sharpen so for free hand I can't say but what I can say is the Metallic Bonded CBN are very good stones from what limited time of have had to use mine so far.

sodak said:
Hey David,

While I'm still using diamonds a lot, I think for rough work, the SiC rough stones are faster for me because I can use as much pressure as I want, but with diamonds I have to be careful to avoid tear out. I'm using a cheap SiC stone that I got in the tool section of Home Depot. Having said that, I'm interested to see how you like the CBN stones. Please let us know what you think, thanks!
Click to expand...
 
tiguy, I don't think there is a secret potion in the stone. It's a good quality Norton SiC 80 grit stone. That hits the sweet spot for a lower grit which may be used to rebevel. It is only a 2X8" stone but this is all that's needed for great cutting performance as it literally eats harden steel. DM
 
David Martin said:
I have been curious about guys on this forum writing how diamond stones work much faster.
So, I'm wondering what sharpening stones were you using prior to going to diamond? Type of
grit and size? Thanks, DM
Click to expand...

I know guys like Ankerson forget more about sharpening each day then I’ll ever know, but I only throw in my 2 cents when I don’t understand what he and others are saying! I still use cheap waterstones like the King80 (250/2000)and lots of others I got from my grandfather(which I don’t know the grit of), but for me and my cpm blades, dmt sharpeners are just quicker! If I’m ruining my s110v, s90v blades by not following their advice, I haven’t noticed yet. Diafolds are also a lot cheaper as far as I have seen.
 
HeavyHands, looked into this stone, emailed or called them and discussed it w/ them. Then it was found they made a short run of these stones for ACE Hardware stores. Their other stone offerings were aluminum oxide. DM
 
David Martin said:
HeavyHands, looked into this stone, emailed or called them and discussed it w/ them. Then it was found they made a short run of these stones for ACE Hardware stores. Their other stone offerings were aluminum oxide. DM
Click to expand...


This might be crossing over to previous conversations about the Norton Econo stone. From my perspective, the ACE combination stones look like the ones Sears was selling not too many years back, made in the USA at a time after Norton had moved all their production to Mexico. And the ACE stones shared very similar packaging, made in USA and visually identical.

Yes, my ACE stone is a bit more coarse/aggressive than my Crystalon, both grits. A fast stone, I even use it for setting up my chisels and plane irons sometimes, will easily reprofile any steel out there. At the low end of the scale I don't see any benefit to using diamond over SIC unless I'm using a guide (faster to swap out plates of the same thickness) or am sharpening a more expensive knife with black coating or stonewash finish where I don't need the hassle of potential scratches above the shoulder.
 
Yes, going by the scratch pattern on the ACE stone and the Norton JUM-3. I'd say the coarse side of the ACE stone is like 70-80 grit and the fine side is like 220-250. So, about a 50 grit difference from the JUM-3. A very quick working stone but you do need either one finer SiC stone or a loaded strop, in order to pull off a edge. DM
 
I used to use old carborundum, about three (OK, four) decades, ago, along with various soft Arkansas stones, and a big old Black Arkansas for finishing. Then I discovered diamond hones. My original 6" DMTs are still good after 25+ years -- when they load up I clean them with BreakFree CLP, which lifts out the skarf.
 
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