What stones to buy

[Emersonman91]

Hi guys I’m making my second post ever right now and I’m trying to figure out what sharpening stones or rigs if any to add to my collection.

Currently I have the Spyderco sharp maker with course fine and ultrafine stones.

I have a few knives that seem to need a pretty aggressive reprofiling or at least proper Apexing.

What I do better with diamond stones for the sharp maker or if I just am OK with spending $200 is there a better option such as may be a couple of bench stones or a couple of freehand Stones that would be recommended.



that brings me to my second question:

if my goal is to get my knives hair popping sharp what would the best routine for me be.


My current routine is :

For curved blades :brown stone corner , white stone corner (this leaves the blade sharp but not quite finished because you don’t ever use the flat side of the stone.

For straight blades :corner then flat side of brown course stone and then corner then flat side of the white fine stone.


Should I be adding stropping into my repertoire and if so what are some good straps and compounds to pick up.


Keep in mind as far as sharpening supplies I am willing to spend $100-$200 if you can get me some stones and some strapping materials that will be able to be used for most if not all of my knives

 

[Craig James]

It really is horses for courses and down to what you and your pocket feel comfortable with and what type of steel you have. Quite often you get what you pay for as well.

Sharpening systems are great for reproducible angles and edges but require some set up. Clamped systems can be a large investment, struggle at low angles (without additional components) but remove pretty much all variation in the process.

Bench stones require next to no set up but have a steep learning curve. It is almost impossible to get a perfect v shaped grind due to the natural angle variation when moving the knife. People can and do get extremely sharp edges but in my opinion unless you are an absolute expert at freehanding, you probably won’t get that ‘perfect’ edge that you get off a system. I’ll temper that last statement somewhat by saying that there won’t be any noticeable difference in sharpness between the two techniques way before you approach that point.

The edge pro is a somewhat middle ground whereby the knife is held by hand onto the plate with the stone guided. Edge pro format stones are the most readily available and therefore the cheapest with multiple systems utilising the format.

Any means of sharpening will require an understanding of how to sharpen and some practise.

Regarding stones themselves, firstly always go for a reputable supplier.


Stones:
Diamond plates are absolutely necessary for high vanadium content steels. Feel and feedback tend to be an issue here when compared to traditional whetstones but modern resin bonded diamonds and CBN alleviate this issue somewhat.

Synthetic water stones are typically bonded AlOx or SiC powders. A quality stone will cut quick, have great feedback and work on pretty much any standard steel. They won’t function as well on ‘supersteels’. They do require maintenance and flattening and are typically available in a wider range of grit sizes.

Natural stones (think Arkansas and JNats) have similar attributes to the synthetics above but with more natural variation as at a very basic level they are chunks of rock hewn from the ground.

For me personally I have gone down the freehand route with a combination of diamond and synthetics plus strops. I like the discipline, enjoy being able to get a knife sharp without any (or minimal) kit needed. It gives me a lot of joy in learning an age old technique that really hasn’t changed in centuries.

To finish, you asked what stones to buy. The only advice I will give you is based on my own rather limited experience. I love the Naniwa Chosera/professional line. Particularly the 800 / 3000 grit. They really are fantastic stones. For a higher grit option, the Norton 6000 is excellent value for money. It’s not perfect (it loads up etc.) but some of the higher grit stones are absolutely eye wateringly expensive. I also love an extremely coarse SiC for banged up knives and removing chips etc. I also have a stop with several compounds but find myself consistently turning to my 3/2 micron diamond paste to aid removal of the final stubborn bits of burr - particularly from my not very expensive and therefore slightly gummy stainless steel kitchen knives.

 

[Emersonman91]

It really is horses for courses and down to what you and your pocket feel comfortable with and what type of steel you have. Quite often you get what you pay for as well.

Sharpening systems are great for reproducible angles and edges but require some set up. Clamped systems can be a large investment, struggle at low angles (without additional components) but remove pretty much all variation in the process.

Bench stones require next to no set up but have a steep learning curve. It is almost impossible to get a perfect v shaped grind due to the natural angle variation when moving the knife. People can and do get extremely sharp edges but in my opinion unless you are an absolute expert at freehanding, you probably won’t get that ‘perfect’ edge that you get off a system. I’ll temper that last statement somewhat by saying that there won’t be any noticeable difference in sharpness between the two techniques way before you approach that point.

The edge pro is a somewhat middle ground whereby the knife is held by hand onto the plate with the stone guided. Edge pro format stones are the most readily available and therefore the cheapest with multiple systems utilising the format.

Any means of sharpening will require an understanding of how to sharpen and some practise.

Regarding stones themselves, firstly always go for a reputable supplier.


Stones:
Diamond plates are absolutely necessary for high vanadium content steels. Feel and feedback tend to be an issue here when compared to traditional whetstones but modern resin bonded diamonds and CBN alleviate this issue somewhat.

Synthetic water stones are typically bonded AlOx or SiC powders. A quality stone will cut quick, have great feedback and work on pretty much any standard steel. They won’t function as well on ‘supersteels’. They do require maintenance and flattening and are typically available in a wider range of grit sizes.

Natural stones (think Arkansas and JNats) have similar attributes to the synthetics above but with more natural variation as at a very basic level they are chunks of rock hewn from the ground.

For me personally I have gone down the freehand route with a combination of diamond and synthetics plus strops. I like the discipline, enjoy being able to get a knife sharp without any (or minimal) kit needed. It gives me a lot of joy in learning an age old technique that really hasn’t changed in centuries.

To finish, you asked what stones to buy. The only advice I will give you is based on my own rather limited experience. I love the Naniwa Chosera/professional line. Particularly the 800 / 3000 grit. They really are fantastic stones. For a higher grit option, the Norton 6000 is excellent value for money. It’s not perfect (it loads up etc.) but some of the higher grit stones are absolutely eye wateringly expensive. I also love an extremely coarse SiC for banged up knives and removing chips etc. I also have a stop with several compounds but find myself consistently turning to my 3/2 micron diamond paste to aid removal of the final stubborn bits of burr - particularly from my not very expensive and therefore slightly gummy stainless steel kitchen knives.

So allow me to specify Currently with my sharp maker I don’t get the hair popping edge that I would like and I don’t know if I would get any better results from a different system or if I should just learn to use my current system better.


When I use the sharpie trick I tend to get the entire bevel very nice and mirror finished and it cuts pretty well but I noticed that the heel tends to be dollar than the belly of the blade.

I assume that has to do with sharpening technique and not the devices that I’m using.


If I plan to stay with the Spyderco sharp maker and just use a hand stone to touch up uneven spots would that work.

and if I do choose to do that do I need a diamond for a Spyderco Delica four or an Emerson combat katambit? (i’m not sure what type of steel these two knives use but they seem to be soft enough that they do respond to regular sharp maker stones and not the diamond ones).


If I don’t have super strong knives that require diamond would you usually only use the diamond for severe and aggressive reprofiling?

 

[Craig James]

It does sound technique driven in your case from your description. A polished edge doesn’t necessarily mean a sharp edge.

I would guess that you are not fully apexing the edge down the entire length of the blade (I.e raising a burr down the full length of both sides). This could be because your angle of approach is changing towards the heel or maybe you have an uneven factory grind. I don’t own a sharp marker but I believe you should be able to get extremely sharp edges of it with a bit of time and effort.

Properly deburred you should be able to get shaving sharp edges off your coarsest stone, it may be worth trying this before moving on. The issue with the sharp marker is not the ultimate edge that is achievable but the amount of time it takes to reprofile an edge that doesn’t match the angles of the sharp marker.

Most things I’ve read suggest the diamond stones for the sharp maker are quicker but maybe wait for a response from someone who owns one for a better answer.

My DMT coarse was the first stone I bought and it’s great and I still use it but I tend to turn to my Waterstones now. For heavy reprofiling I used a coarse SiC, specifically the Zandstra Foss

 

[Emersonman91]

It does sound technique driven in your case from your description. A polished edge doesn’t necessarily mean a sharp edge.

I would guess that you are not fully apexing the edge down the entire length of the blade (I.e raising a burr down the full length of both sides). This could be because your angle of approach is changing towards the heel or maybe you have an uneven factory grind. I don’t own a sharp marker but I believe you should be able to get extremely sharp edges of it with a bit of time and effort.

Properly deburred you should be able to get shaving sharp edges off your coarsest stone, it may be worth trying this before moving on. The issue with the sharp marker is not the ultimate edge that is achievable but the amount of time it takes to reprofile an edge that doesn’t match the angles of the sharp marker.

Most things I’ve read suggest the diamond stones for the sharp maker are quicker but maybe wait for a response from someone who owns one for a better answer.

My DMT coarse was the first stone I bought and it’s great and I still use it but I tend to turn to my Waterstones now. For heavy reprofiling I used a coarse SiC, specifically the Zandstra Foss

So here’s my plan. I’ve noticed exactly like you said that basically on the way down the sharp maker it’s really hard to keep the blade perfectly straight so you do tend to have some variation from one part of the blade to the other.


When you say that the hair popping sharpness should be able to be caused by the coarsest stone would that mean theoretically that majority of the sharpness should come from the brownstone and then the final finish and smoothness should come from the White or fine stone ?


If so that might be my problem because there are times that I move on from the brownstone to quickly and kind of presume that the Whitestone is going to get it a little bit more honed when in reality I think the white stone is meant for finishing and the brownstone is meant for honing.


What’s a good coarseness if I would like to add a coarse and a fine bench stone and a handheld stone to my collection (so a course and fine of each type)


Also if I was just gonna buy a strap and maybe two or three compounds what size or micron compounds would you recommend.

also what strap do you recommend and what company makes good strops


Clearly you like the 2/3 µm paste which seems to be very easily available and also can come in sets I’ve seen Set that has one 1 micron 3 micron and 6 micron

is the one micron close enough to 2/3 micron

or would you try to get individual pastes and make sure that one of them is the 2/3 micron


The reason I ask so in detail about the strapping is that I definitely think that would help me remove certain burs


Also speaking of birds do you sharpen until you purposely develop a bar because I’ve heard people say that they sharpen until there’s a noticeable bar rather than sharpening less and avoiding causing the burr.



is the goal to sharpen each side until it develops a noticeable bar and then just neutralize the burring ?

 

[Craig James]

Imagine the edge as a triangle with a series of teeth like a saw blade. Your coarse stones set the ‘triangle’, with the hollows in the teeth matching the abrasive size you are using. As you progress up in grit the hollows of the teeth reduce and you begin to refine the edge. You can set an edge with an very fine grit but you will be grinding for hours or days. Google science of sharp which is a great blog by Todd on this forum for some high res SEM images of apexes which will give you some idea.

When people talk about a coarse working edge being preferable it’s because those teeth are better able to grab and hold the medium you are cutting. Coarse edges tend to be better for pull cutting and refined edges for push cutting, so again horses for courses. As an example I finish my veggie knifes to 6000 and my meat knives to 800. I find the term ‘hair popping’ a little bit of a misnomer. Finished well at 400 a knife will easily shave arm hair and cut thin newspaper with the grain. A well finished knife at 3-6k will cut thin newspaper exactly perpendicular to the grain with a true push cut.

For your question regarding burrs read the sticky in this forum by bgentry, he explains it well and in detail, but simply put I always raise a burr on both sides because then I know the edge is correctly apexed. As you get more experienced you may not need to do this.

for stone choices I have something around a 100 grit, 400, 800, 1000, 3000, 6000. You could do most anything using the 400, 1000, 6000. To be honest you wouldn’t even need the 6000 initially.

Saying all this, it may be worth getting things right on the sharp marker before dropping a load of money on stones.

 

[kane22]

I'd take a look at KME. I think you can still get the basic system for $175. You can probable make a stand for it out of stuff you have laying around the house. That's what I did. The diamond stones cut fast if you're going to be reprofiling. There 1500 stone puts a really nice edge on. I was worried I would need something finer, but not bad at all.

That leaves you $25 for a strop. I have two and use black, white, and green compound. You would be fine with just one with white and green though. I little stropping really does help I think. Doesn't much, but it seems to clean up the edge.

I bought a decent combo bench stone two months ago, and have been trying to learn how to freehand sharpen. I'm slowly getting to where I can get a ok edge on a knife. No way i'd want to try and reprofile though. I'd have it all jacked up, that's just me though.

If you you're a little OCD like me, the KME is pretty easy to use and get a perfect edge. The other systems out there are good too. When I was shopping the KME seemed like the best bang for the buck.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi
Save the corners for serrations only
See For more detailed/advanced sharpmaker debugging steps see Sharpening Curriculum / Trouble sharpening super blue - Spyderco Forums

In addition to sharpmaker, a simple
$20 norton crystolon bench stone ...
and maybe one of these and a little practice / observation (curriculum )
imgur.com/a/0Mc3Ejo

 

[Emersonman91]

W

I'd take a look at KME. I think you can still get the basic system for $175. You can probable make a stand for it out of stuff you have laying around the house. That's what I did. The diamond stones cut fast if you're going to be reprofiling. There 1500 stone puts a really nice edge on. I was worried I would need something finer, but not bad at all.

That leaves you $25 for a strop. I have two and use black, white, and green compound. You would be fine with just one with white and green though. I little stropping really does help I think. Doesn't much, but it seems to clean up the edge.

I bought a decent combo bench stone two months ago, and have been trying to learn how to freehand sharpen. I'm slowly getting to where I can get a ok edge on a knife. No way i'd want to try and reprofile though. I'd have it all jacked up, that's just me though.

If you you're a little OCD like me, the KME is pretty easy to use and get a perfect edge. The other systems out there are good too. When I was shopping the KME seemed like the best bang for the buck.

Who is kme? Can I get a link

 

[Emersonman91]

Hi
Save the corners for serrations only
See For more detailed/advanced sharpmaker debugging steps see Sharpening Curriculum / Trouble sharpening super blue - Spyderco Forums

In addition to sharpmaker, a simple
$20 norton crystolon bench stone ...
and maybe one of these and a little practice / observation (curriculum )
imgur.com/a/0Mc3Ejo

Her. Ei

Hi
Save the corners for serrations only
See For more detailed/advanced sharpmaker debugging steps see Sharpening Curriculum / Trouble sharpening super blue - Spyderco Forums

In addition to sharpmaker, a simple
$20 norton crystolon bench stone ...
and maybe one of these and a little practice / observation (curriculum )
imgur.com/a/0Mc3Ejo

hey can’t I just use the stone on a table and Just find my angle myself using sharpie method.

Also
I thought the sharp maker specifically tells you the only way to sharpen curved blade is to use the edges so for something like a combat karambit since you have a hawk bill design you need to use the corners no?

 

[willc]

Her. Ei


hey can’t I just use the stone on a table and Just find my angle myself using sharpie method.

Also
I thought the sharp maker specifically tells you the only way to sharpen curved blade is to use the edges so for something like a combat karambit since you have a hawk bill design you need to use the corners no?

Yes you can absolutely use these or any other stones on a table or flat surface.

A sharpie marker will help too.
Good lighting and some form of magnifying tool really makes sharpening much easier too.
You will want to inspect your edge often until you get the angle down.

Sharpening by hand is very easy to do.
It just requires practice and patience.

 

[tommytman]

I find I need the diamond rods in the sharpmaker to get a burr quickly with the edge of the triangle. In fact the last several blades I only used the edge of the triangle to sharpen and it worked fine.
Make sure you get a burr worked up on one side then the other. The bevel from the factory won’t be a perfect 15 or 20. Reprofile will take a long time.
I use quarters under the ends of the SM to adjust the angle to best approximate the factory bevel and start there.

 

[oceanrider]

W
Who is kme? Can I get a link

Check YouTube for "Dean O" and "KnifeKrazy"