What to look for in a sword?

Askari · Aug 21, 2003

Being a complete virgin in swordmanship I need some seasoned swashbucklers' advice...

I'm going to either buy, make or have a sword made for me, but I'm not quite sure what to look for. The sole function of said implement is SD and training for SD. For serious training (hitting targets) I can get a trainer of same weight and dimensions made.

Length: I was thinking something like 21" - 25". Mustn't be too long to work indoors or between parked cars, among trees...

Width/thickness: you tell me, this is what I find hard to figure out. I want the blade to be thick and stiff enough to penetrate without bending or breaking, but yet light enough to make swift cuts and slashes; I'm not looking for a kukri or machete (I have both) but blade should chop as well as pierce.

Steel: not much choice here, if I have it made locally. They have heaps of old car springs that are used for anything with an edge, knives to spears. I suppose spring steel is ok for flexibility and toughness? Correct me if I'm wrong, please. It's not likely that I'll find quality steel for decent price. Any hints regarding material are welcome! The sword won't be USED on anything, so edge retention isn't a big issue, as long as it clears small bones and softer tissue without rolling or flattening completely (my kukri is of inferior steel but it just keeps on whackin')

Blade design: I kinda like the simple and pure curved form of Japanese swords, but I feel like two edges and spear point would be appropriate here. So I'd go with a straight, dagger-like blade. Whaddyasay?

Handle: I can make one, wood or man-made materials. Hilt? Pommel? Guard - maybe a small one.

Sheath: no problem, I can make one myself. The sword won't be carried around on my person but kept in car or at home.

So far I've played around with some machetes, grinding off everything that doesn't look like a sword, fitting nicer handle, etc. but the weight/length/thickness just doesn't feel right.

If you could recommend a design, manufacturer, dealer, info site, anything for a beginner swordsman, THANK YOU!

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edited to add: This http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=265637 was good advice but not exactly what I was looking for. I'll look into swordforums' beginners' section right away.

Anything to add?

blindside · Aug 21, 2003

Well your description of a short, double bladed, spear pointed sword pretty much screams "gladius" to me. Take a peek over at Albion for a couple of examples. On the single edge side of things you could go for either a wakizashi or a something like a pinuti. Kris Cutlery offers an example, I have one and it is one wicked little sword.

hope that helps,

~L

Loki · Aug 23, 2003

Sounds like a short sword to me too. Check out Allsaintsblades.com - they have some very good Angus Trim shorties to chose from.

FullerH · Aug 25, 2003

Askari, you may wish to look here: http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=12 which is the SwordForum.com Ancient Weapons Forum. Look for posts by Matt Amt, by me or by others on Roman swords or gladii (gladius is singular). There have been a very large number of sources discussed over the past year or so. Matt had a very nice blade forged for himself by a smith and I have seen it and played with it, it is really quite nice, and he has the smith's address listed. Albion's work is superb, but pricey. Just avoid Museum Replicas and/or Windlass Steel. The newer stuff from Depeeka is ok, but you must have it sharpened, as it is left dull for re-enactor use. Good Luck.

FullerH · Aug 26, 2003

Askari, I don't know if Tanzania is still a membewr of the British Commonwealth, but if it is, you may wish to try this company in the UK because the import duties may be more favorable that trying to buy from the States. http://www.jelldragon.com/
Jelling Dragon has a very nice selection of Roman Shortswords and will deliver them semi-sharp for you.

You may also wish to try http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/ This is Paul Binn and, while he does not make Roman swords, he makes a wide variety of Norse and Anglo-Saxon types as well as a wide variety of medieval swords. You may wish to drop him an email.

All of this depends, of course on the economics of ordering from the UK.

icemanat95 · Aug 28, 2003

Looking at all the Kris "swords" they all seem profoundly overweight.

Some real world weight guidelines for true swords (rather than swordlike wallhangers):

single handed cut and thrust sword (broadsword) 2-3 pounds
hand-and-a-half longsword: 3-4.5 pounds
two-handed combat swords: 5-8 pounds (8 pounds would be high and mainly found in the more ornate Swiss and German models with lots of ornamentation on the hilts)

Shortswords (Western "Arming" swords) might weigh 2-2.5 pounds, but are not to be confused with the Roman Gladius or Celtic style thrusting blades.

Roman or Celtic infantry swords of the Gladius type shouldn't weigh more than a couple of pounds if properly shaped and ground. This makes them quick and handy while still retaining sufficient mass to chop effectively.

Stiffness in a swordblade is not necessarily a function of mass alone. It's also a function of blade geometry, hardening and tempering, and steel choice. Inferior "Swords" make up for poor steel, and bad design and execution by adding mass to the blade, though usually it is really only laziness and cheapness that yields these massive crowbars with edges. Proper grinding takes time and experience (as well as tools other than a benchgrinder and belt sander). So less expensive makers cannot or won't afford the time and craftsmen required....if they did, their swords would become expensive.

In their time, a sword was an expensive weapon, spears were FAR more common. While they were available in varying quality and price so that a more comfortable peasant could rise to the purchase of a sword, battlefield longevity of such weapons was questionable. A good sword was probably only affordable to the knightly and warrior classes until the rise of the merchant classes. The cost of a truly battle worthy sword was probably more than the annual income of your average peasant, and while attainable by the landed classes, would likely represent a significant investment for most. Truly exceptional blades were available to only the truly wealthy.

What does this mean today? Well, steel quality is more reliable today thanks to efficient production techniques, so the basic cost of materials is lower than it would have been 700 years ago. The skill required to make a good blade today remains the same. The blade still NEEDS to be forged with hammer and anvil to correctly align it's crystal structure, it still needs the same careful eye toward shape. It still needs to be weel ground to final shape and properly hardened and tempered to provide edge holding ability, toughness and the ability to bend without taking a set or breaking. The skill factor remains considerable. You are NOT going to find a quality sword of any type for cheap money. I'm not familiar with the local economy in Tanzania, but labor costs are likely a fraction of US labor costs, so you might be able to do well locally.

Some guidelines: For a long blade, excessive hardness is a handicap and will lead to premature breakage. Stainless steel is a major no-no since stainless tends towards brittleness no matter what you do to it. Rockwell hardness range for swords should probably stay in the high 40's low 50's on the "C" scale. Harder edges and a softer spine are preferable in a sword of any type.

Blade thickness: At the hilt, 3/16ths MAX. A distal taper toward the point is preferable. Distal taper means that thickness of the blade decreases toward the point. This shifts the point of balance toward the hilt and makes for a fast and agile point. A short sword is primarily a thrusting sword, so point agility is important. Smooth distal taper is hard to accomplish without forging, requiring an awful lot of careful grinding and frequent measuring with either fixed gauges or calipers.

Blade width: 2 inches at the hilt with a gentle taper out to about 2/3rds of blade length before a more radical taper to the point. Some cheap gladius designs feature a sharp, angular taper to the point, this is counterproductive. IT is easier to manufacture, and much easier to sharpen, but it's a poor thrusting geometry since that sharp change in angle toward the point creates excessive friction in a sword. A more gentle taper encourages deeper penetration.

If your maker is up to it, a fullers, so-called "blood grooves" milled into the spine of the blade on each side, greatly reduce blade weight without sacrificing stiffness, you've got to be careful though not to grind through to the other side. You need to leave a sixteenth between the fullers to preserve the stregth of the "I" beam, grind through and the two heavier sides will twist around the hole, and stiffness is lost.

Hilt, keep it simple, You are not worried about an opposing sword running down your blade to cut your hand, what you are worried about is your hand running up onto the blade during a thrust. A minimal guard is all you need, just enough to prevent this. Keep the gripping area simple as well. A wooden grip should be deeply grooved or checkered for a better grip, but a better option would probably be to wrap the grip with something like tennis racket grip tape or soemthing else that promotes a sticky grip. It would be ugly, but for a practical weapon, who cares? Wood should still form the foundation of the grip though, just wrap over it, not too thick though. The pommel should be kept pretty trim, the flattened disc form is a good option. The pommel and guards can either be welded on or high strength soldered on. Ideally the pommel would be attached with a heavy duty nut threaded onto the tang of the blade, but that's not necessary. Likewise the guard would also be removable for cleaning, and precisely fitted, but this may not be an option either. SO long as the connections for both are void free to prevent penetration of blood, sweat, water, etc. that could cause unseen corrosion, you should be fine, just strip the grip, clean and lubricate the metal fairly regularly.

Good luck.

FullerH · Aug 28, 2003

"The blade still NEEDS to be forged with hammer and anvil to correctly align it's crystal structure,"

From a post by Icemanat95

Iceman, may I suggest that the question of forging a blade is not quite as clear as you would have it, although my preference is, like yours, for forged blades? One of America's swordsmith recognized by many as among the very best is Angus Trim who uses the stock reduction method for his blades. I have one of his blades in my Gladius Hispaniensis and, while I haven't used it in combat, it is a very light and very "alive" blade that you need to feel to believe. Others who have his blades and have used them in all sorts of ways swear by his work. For further information on him and on his work, I would suggest that anyone interested go over to SwordForum.com and look up "Angus Trim", "Atrim", or "Gus Trim" in their Archives.

Actually, it is my suspicion, and I am no expert on this, that hardening, heat treating, and tempering have more influence on the final product than whether or not it is forged.

BTW, when you look at Kris swords, you need to click on the "more info" note at the bottom right of the yellow information paragraph as the weight in that paragraph is the shipping weight of the item, not the weight of the sword. For example, their Viking sword weighs 2.8-3.0 lbs. but shows a shipping weight of 6 lbs. while their Pompeii Gladius weighs 1.7-1.9 lbs. while the shipping weight is 4 lbs. The shipping weight includes the sword, the scabbard, and the packing for both and determines the shipping costs. But I will agree with you about the importance of weight. What you say about the weight of swords is quite true. You do not want them to be too heavy or you will tire from using them too quickly, let alone toting them around. Another important factor that Kris includes in their "more info" page is the Balance Point ("BP") of the sword in question. A chopper, such as a falcata, should be fairly blade heavy to make for a good chopping stroke, rather like a good panga or bolo, which means that it will have the BP fairly well forward of the guard. A thrusting blade, however, should have the BP nearer to the guard so as to make the blade quicker and more maneuverable. Kris' Gladius, which is a cut and thrust weapon despite what you may have read in some books* has its BP at 4.5"-4.75" on a 20.75" blade, while their Viking has it at 5.375"-5.5" on a 30.25" blade, making for a very fast slashing sword, exactly the reputation of the Viking sword in history. I might note that their Scots Claidhaemh Mor (Claymore), a shortish two-hander, has a 39" blade with a BP at 3"-5" from the guard and weighs 5.5-5.7 lbs., well within your limits.

May I take issue with your criticism of the "sharp, angular taper to the point" as you call it on some "cheaper" versions of the Gladius? The Pompeii style of gladius, so named because the first examples were found in the ruins of Pompeii and Herculaneum, was made in that style. It had parallel edges on a blade of some 2"-2.25" width that then ended in an angular point, just as the Kris model does. This was the sword that came into use in the second quarter of the 1st Century CE and lasted in one form or another until the end of the 2nd Century CE. The long, tapering point that you describe was the type used on the predecessor gladii from the Gladius Hispaniensis, the Spanish Sword, adopted during the 2nd Punic War, to the Mainz style gladius and the Fulham style gladius of the Augustan period in the 1st Century CE. To see examples of more expensive and very well-made examples of these, please go to http://www.albionarmorers.com/swords.htm and to http://www.thelonelymountainforge.com/roman.htm

sweet · Aug 28, 2003

Originally posted by FullerH
Askari, I don't know if Tanzania is still a membewr of the British Commonwealth, but if it is, you may wish to try this company in the UK because the import duties may be more favorable that trying to buy from the States. http://www.jelldragon.com/
Jelling Dragon has a very nice selection of Roman Shortswords and will deliver them semi-sharp for you.

You may also wish to try http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/ This is Paul Binn and, while he does not make Roman swords, he makes a wide variety of Norse and Anglo-Saxon types as well as a wide variety of medieval swords. You may wish to drop him an email.

All of this depends, of course on the economics of ordering from the UK.

Hey Hugh, I have always been interested in Paul Binn's swords + Jelly Dragon's but dont know anyone who has either one...do you own either if so what is your opinion on the one you own? If you dont own one do you know anyone that does if so what do they think of them?
Thanks, B

FullerH · Aug 29, 2003

No, I don't believe that I do, although there is a Viking sword that I bought second-hand from a widow who knew nothing of its origins. The fellow who was selling it for her knew only that it was an excellent sword for the money, in which I concur, but it has no markings on it. Those who know it seem to think that it might, I say might, be an older Jelling sword or an old Del Tin. It is a "good 'un", whatever.*

In any case, while I have no sure knowledge of them, I have heard good things of them over on SwordForum over the years, but nothing recently.

*As an aside, I sold a WWII German issue Fallschirmjaegermesser, the paratroop gravity knife, to a fellow at the same re-enactment where I bought the sword for the price of the sword, quite a lot more than I had paid for the knife 40 years ago and quite a lot more than what I had offered it to a fellow here for. Of course, the guy who bought it was re-enacting a fallschirmjaeger and is now the only guy in his unit with a genuine issue knife rather than one ginned up from the current version made in Germany. They carried them in a little pocket secially made into the right knee of their pants just for that purpose.