What Trolls Can Teach Us

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
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Looking over a resurrected thread, which I have no desire to return to, I re-read a comment by a long deleted fellow who said he'd thought better of Bill than what Bill had done. Paraphrase. This was callow, but reminded me of something.

There is a constant tug/pull between manners and freedom. Sometimes Trolls share a trait in common with real smart Noggins; they speak freely. Too freely. And we've seen experts in various fields make the same mistake. (Though more often we've seen humble knowledge over and over again in HI)

I like the freedom Trolls have, but I detest the way they misuse it. Yes, we know they are 'free' because they answer to no one, not even themselves. Yet we could borrow this one good thing from them; to occasionally loosen the percieved boundaries. To do so without meaness or a chip on the shoulder is the key.

It has been said over and over again there is no freedom without responsibility. Heinlein wrote many times that manners were the lubricant for human relations, and very important. And not just for form's sake, or saving face, though if nothing else that's important; but I think for caring for each other.

I happen to be heading the other way- I'm trying to react less and remember my kind core, (lest some of you become alarmed at the direction of this post!) I wish I could always remember where I really belonged; on the ground, on the floor. It is much easier to talk to God there.
If we were all busted down in a foxhole together, how much pride and conceit would there be then?

I think Trolls do have something to teach us, though. They dare. Sometimes there is a heavy roof on our shoulders that does not belong. There is a difference between real manners and true kindness, and mere aparatus and 'appearence'. As good men and women, we have an important obligation not only not to give unneccesary offense, but not to take it, either.

You have to wonder who you think you are if you find yourself offended too often.

Thanks,

munk
 
munk said:
...on the ground, on the floor. It is much easier to talk to God there...
Click to expand...
But, depending on how you got down there, it's usually much harder to remember what God answered.
 
Absolutely great post, and astute observation. Good advice too. Speaking for myself, I should try to remember it.

(I can sense all the heads out there nodding in agreement.)
 
Munk your welcome to join me under the HI Forum bridge for coffee and discussion anytime... sincerely, BillTheCat ( HI Forum Troll in residence :) )


_________________
...Apocalypse meow
 
Hip-hip-hooray for Trolls....!













Wait....I think I misunderstood....:footinmou






;)
 
What Munk said! :)

An acquaintance I know takes great pride in her highly developed sensitivity. She is so sensitive that she feels offended at the mere mention of any subject that is not perfectly aligned with her opinion,perspective,and personal point of view. She is not well educated,well-traveled,well read,articulate, nor at an age where time would have given her the benefit of an accumulation of life-experiences to draw upon. There is one thing that she uses to structure her time and that is National Public Radio. Don't get me wrong,I don't have sympathy for her but I do sometimes wonder how she would cope with a tsunami,earthquake,fire,mugging,robbery,hurricane,or a week in the woods without amenities. I like to think that some cognitive dissonance would be good for her. :D

http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jamesa/learning/dissonance.htm
 
I was amused the departed personage said something like: "I expected better of you, Bill."

Throwing Bill's personal decisions about his morality back at him, as if it were a public commodity. It's not Bill's any longer, you see, it belongs to the public domain. There are expectations of his behavior. We tend to cannonize Bill,(did I say/spell that right?) which is human of us. When the form becomes so heavy the Real Bill is no longer here with us, we have gone too far.

And Trolls, whatever ugly things they are, are also occasionally irreverent. Some of them are too stupid to know what they are fooling with, and all seem too arrogant, but there is something refreshing about being able to drop the form.

I found the idea this guy, troll, lecturing Bill, to be hillarious. I laughed out loud. Yeah, I was a little offended too, but after all, Bill's reality was never in danger from this guy.

You know, hearing a roomful of laughter for his stupidity would have done more good, achieved more behavior modification than any moralizing back at him we could do.



munk
 
It looks like a lot of people agree with you, Munk, which makes me feel left out because I don't have the foggiest notion what you are talking about.

How about a little synopsis in 25 words or less on "Munk's Interpretation of Humanistic Philosophy in Communication".

Am I on the right track? If so, you can make that synopsis 10 words or less.
 
I think what Munk is saying is something close to what I have always said about some people: "There is nothing I can do to prevent someone from being offended who is DETERMINED to be offended."

For example, no matter what I said to one older woman who belonged to a club I once was a member of, she would respond in injured tones "That is insulting!" Guess she felt that by being permanently injured she automatically held the moral high-ground. I finally told her to stuff it. Now THAT's insulting! The old witch needed a basis of reference anyway... :D

Regards,

Norm
 
It's always a good time to oil the ole .38, Bill.

;)
 
I've always found the bath-tub a good place to listen to what God has to say. There's something about being naked and in hot water...
 
Munk - I think the problem here is that the electronic media we use to communicate on the internet is somewhat impersonal. Very impersonal, actually.

Whether it's IRC, Usenet, forums or whatever - even email - unless you've met the person on the other end in real life, you're just talking to a name. The only assessments you can make of the person are based on what they've typed and how they've typed it. Regardless of what someone says to me, I only know what they've told me...and they only know what I've told them. It's frighteningly easy to write something to a faceless stranger that one would never say in a face-to-face conversation. Some people will not, or can not, resist that temptation.

To make matters worse, it's very easy to misinterpret what someone says. In personal conversation we're used to reading body language and expressions, whether consciously or otherwise. The brain can process information at a much faster rate than the mouth can produce it. What makes up the difference in a conversation? The unspoken things. The way I stand, my facial expression, how I hold my hands, how close I stand to you while we're talking - all these things pass information along to you and everyone else nearby that isn't always expressed verbally or even acknowledged. Even in a phone conversation, the changes of timbre in my voice, the pauses in speech, the grunts of agreement - all of these tell a story and refine the message. This is entirely lost in an electronic exchange. Emoticons help but can't change the situation entirely. I routinely hurl insults at my friends and associates in a joking matter. They do the same to me. Some of these are downright offensive, especially to people who aren't in on the joke. I wouldn't presume to be able to call your lineage, religion, or sexual orientation into question on an open forum, tack a smiley on the end of it, and assume you got the joke, yet I do this all the time verbally and those on the other end do get the joke. Discretion is certainly the better part of valor (and politeness) in this case. :) (And there's that smiley tacked on the end so you know that no harm is intended - none of which would've been required had you and I been discussing this at the bar.)

Sometimes the so-called trolls aren't trolls at all...at least, not on purpose. I see this all the time on Usenet. Netiquette on the whole has gotten a bit better since I first got online but it's nowhere close to being on par with an actual verbal conversation. For every intentional troll, there's nine other people that aren't. They may be misunderstood, they may be a passive-agressive sort, or they may even be an honest-to-goodness sociopath. More often than not, though, they're not intentionally trying to disrupt everyone else, IMO.

I see the term "troll" tossed around far too casually in most places. (Not here necessarily.) A troll is not someone who disagrees with me. A troll is not a person who has a hard time communicating. A troll is an individual who willfully attempts to disrupt my conversation for their own gratification. It's fortunate that it's so easy to deal with them - killfile on Usenet or email (with occasional taunts sent their way past the killfile because it annoys them as much as they annoyed me) or an outright ban on a forum like this. Disruptive people in real life can simply be walked away from.

I was going somewhere with this ramble but I completely forgot what it was. We'll blame that one on Woodford Reserve. Let's leave it at this: unless you know the other guy personally, it's always best to adopt Satori's First Law of Barroom Conversation: be polite, be a good listener, agree if what he says is agreeable, and take it with a grain of salt if it's not; he's probably just talking out his @ss. ;) If your first thought is, "This person would never say this to me face-to-face," you're probably right and it's not worth paying attention to.

And if they do say it to you face-to-face? Well, by God life's cheap out here on the Brazos. :cool:
 
Time to stop by the Ranch & Feed store and pick up some more of them 50 pound blocks of salt for around the Cantina. I'll pick up maybe ten, though 6 or 7 ought to last at least a month.

( Sometimes you need to take what is said here with a smidgeon larger piece of salt than some other places. )
 
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