What was the use of the tanto?

L

Lavan

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I have seen the sites on swords and the history of the tanto. My question is HOW was it used? Seems too awkward for much of anything especially considering that the opponent would probably have a much larger blade.
Or were there tanto fights?
Must have had more use than just seppuku.
 
Tanto is as much a utility knife as a weapon. Samurais did not always have their long swords with them. And in the confines of low ceiling Japanese dwellings, the wakasashi and tanto are more useful. There is a system called tantojutsu, but I'm not sure all Samurais learned it.

Another thing about tanto is that it was not exculsive to Samurais, anyone including women, could own and conceal one in their clothes. But it is chiefly a knife for the rich, far too expensive for the average Japanese joe.
 
The tanto was primarily used to inflict deep puncture wounds, often to the base or temple of the skull, but also to organs and other points. Not often used to slash, thats a job for the wak and kat.

This is based on my use of the tanto as it is taught in the Aikibudo-Kobudo style, an imperial form of the art.

Th tanto was often held in the reverse "icepick" grip (unlike the "fencing" style of knife fighting taught and endorsed today), as in some infighting it was useful as an arm guard when retracted, or to snare or snag a limb between tanto spine and inner forearm.

The icepick grip gets a lot of bad mouthing these days, because people fight differently with knives today than they did in japan hundreds of years ago. In the west knife-fight is like some sort of duel, and so the blade forward grips are advocated, keeping the blade extended as much as possible. in the east, it was just another grappling fistfight with blades stuck in there, so the in-close icepick grip was common.

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
Actually I somewhat doubt the use of tanto as utility pieces. A very large number of tanto included kozuka in their mountings. Does that mean it was ritually cared for and loved and only used for killing? Probably not, but its intended use was as a short sword, not a knife. If you have an M4, why would you carry a pistol? There are quite a few stories about various warriors using them as a last-ditch weapon or sidearm.

It was lighter than the other swords, stouter, very fast to draw, very capable of penetrating armor (especially more robust ones that were designed for the task called yoroi-doshi). Another strong influence was that they were cheaper and arguably easier to make than longer blades. It could be worn comfortably in a variety of environments, and later in the history of the sword, it was a status symbol that was more affordable.

One could ask why katana and wakizashi were even made when the predominant weapons were yari and yumi. Everything had its place. Their level of practicality and use shifted around throughout Japan's history as warfare and social practices evolved/changed.
 
Yes, that is what I learned, and the yoroi-doshi style blade is really a slim bladed stabbing dirk, much like the blade of a roundel dagger or rev-war bayonet. The MA I mention uses the tanto in such a way.

Kris Cutlery made a good representation of the stabbing tanto of which we speak, but they have changed their edge profile & geometry on their tanto, as of late...

Keith
En ferro veritas
 
..my phrasing was just bad. I have one that is about 3/8" thick at the habaki, and the blade width at habaki is about an inch. it is bevelled with a false edge near the tip, where the whole thing slims to a wide diamond cross section. definitely a piercer.

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
The one I have looks a lot like a naginata. That was what made my curious. It is such a long blade and with such a curve that holding it in the sword manner makes it look awkward and like it would tend to slip upward.
Icepick I can see as it would cover a whole lower arm as a guard.
Or....yeeeech....up close and dirty, it would easily go through armor and through a body. But it would have to be held in a close up style sort of like grappling with a surprise.
 

The tanto was often held in the reverse "icepick" grip (unlike the "fencing" style of knife fighting taught and endorsed today), as in some infighting it was useful as an arm guard when retracted, or to snare or snag a limb between tanto spine and inner forearm.
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Hi Keith,
interesting perspective. The "fencing" method isn't the only western method of knifefighting being taught today by any stretch. ALL of the 15th century medieval manuals from which the western arts are being constructed show the icepick and the hammer grip. The foil and sabre grips are not shown and aren't used.

Modern fencing has ruined the arts of Western knifefighting. The bowie method is based on the foil and sabre as is the system still taught today that was originally designed by Biddle and then taught by Styers.


The icepick grip gets a lot of bad mouthing these days, because people fight differently with knives today than they did in japan hundreds of years ago. In the west knife-fight is like some sort of duel, and so the blade forward grips are advocated, keeping the blade extended as much as possible. in the east, it was just another grappling fistfight with blades stuck in there, so the in-close icepick grip was common.
Click to expand...

For all but the largest knives capable of shearing cuts (read machete/big bowie) I will always adopt reverse grip and my technique will look something in between Kali Illustrisimo and 15th Century dagger play.
A knife has lethality but not stopping power. The reverse grip increases both.
Cheers
Stu.
 
Well you could be right the tanto is primarily for combat. I think I must have seen a film somewhere where a samurai used it for non-combat purposes.

Europeans often carried daggers to stab under visors and armor joints in the armpits. It makes sense tantos are used the same way.
 
Exactly! Much like the reverse grip of the Okinawa Sai.

Stu: Glad to hear that you also endorse the reverse grip! I agree that sport fencing has made people wanna Fence with knives. What crap!

"snag a limb between tanto spine and inner forearm."--there are counter-strikes to follow the snag, either pommel-punch if you trapped the limb outside, or extended slash followed by quick reverse stab. or, kep the trapped limb immobilized and work with other limbs.
This snaring move is seen in Aikibudo-Kobudo, and was mirrored in Okinawan styles, which is surprising, seeing as the Okinawan styles are more for hard blocks and not snares and such.

"western method of knifefighting being taught today" I am referring to certain combative trainings that have taken place since WWII, I consider 15th C the past. I don't want to name names, but they are easily detected by their disdain for the reverse grips...

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
Originally posted by Stuart McDermid


Hi Keith,
interesting perspective. The "fencing" method isn't the only western method of knifefighting being taught today by any stretch. ALL of the 15th century medieval manuals from which the western arts are being constructed show the icepick and the hammer grip. The foil and sabre grips are not shown and aren't used.

Modern fencing has ruined the arts of Western knifefighting. The bowie method is based on the foil and sabre as is the system still taught today that was originally designed by Biddle and then taught by Styers.



For all but the largest knives capable of shearing cuts (read machete/big bowie) I will always adopt reverse grip and my technique will look something in between Kali Illustrisimo and 15th Century dagger play.
A knife has lethality but not stopping power. The reverse grip increases both.
Cheers
Stu.
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I totally agree with the fact that reverse "icepick" grips increase power. But they restrict the angles and make snap cuts very hard to do, as well as (and in addition to) reducing speed, a primary advantage of a knife. W.H. Hochheim and Sifu Dwight Woods, two of the best knifefighting instructors on the planet use sabre or hammer grips and is part of Hochheim's cirriculum...

A knife definately has stopping power. If used properly, that is..... :D
 
I guess Wakizashi hade been jut a short sword until 16th century. After 17th century, all samurais had to be regulated. Their sword was limited up to two, length 2 shaku 3 sun 5 bu standard. It had acquired ethical meanings afterwards, saying a Wakizashi was to execute himself. A katana can be dull because it depended on his policy, but if his wakizashi is dull it was his and his family's shame. To enhance this rule, non-samurai citizens could carry a sword (sometimes), but never two swords. Its penalty was death.

I doubt all people believed such politically correct ethics. I kenjutsu master used to kill a surprise-attacking assassin with his wakizashi. He explained he used his wakizashi because the assassin was close. He was praised by his quick and right tactics. Nobody blamed him using his harakiri sword for self defense.

But if you want something more than a cool fighting knife, knowing its background will be nourishing your interest....
 
Originally posted by Hibuke
I totally agree with the fact that reverse "icepick" grips increase power. But they restrict the angles and make snap cuts very hard to do, as well as (and in addition to) reducing speed, a primary advantage of a knife. W.H. Hochheim and Sifu Dwight Woods, two of the best knifefighting instructors on the planet use sabre or hammer grips and is part of Hochheim's cirriculum...
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Hey Hibuke,

Snap cuts are only useful in compliant duelling. If one guy is simply just trying to stick the other then they are worse than useless. I cannot speak about Mr Woods but him being called Sifu would suggest that he is a Chinese Martial Artist. You don't hear of Chinese systems being adopted by the military.

I am sure there are many people out there who would take exception to Mr Hochheim being the best on the planet.
There are folks out there who have learned real knifefighting systems from people who have killed for real.

The various systems of WWII combatives immediately spring to mind.
 
Originally posted by Stuart McDermid


Hey Hibuke,

Snap cuts are only useful in compliant duelling. If one guy is simply just trying to stick the other then they are worse than useless.
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What is compliant duelling? Is it, by any chance, just a term made up by people who ignore the reality of knife fighting and instead focus on the delusion of blindly swinging and thrusting unconservatively? Snap cuts are what make the knife so deadly. Like I mentioned in another post, a knife's primary strength lies in its speed. Snap cuts enable quick, fast conservative, effective attacks (that are essential in *ANY* fight) and counterattacks that are just as fast effective and conservative...

Originally posted by Stuart McDermid


I cannot speak about Mr Woods but him being called Sifu would suggest that he is a Chinese Martial Artist. You don't hear of Chinese systems being adopted by the military.
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Wushu. Used by the Red Chinese Army... As for Sifu Woods, you can check out his qualifications (so to speak) at:

http://www.szaboinc.com/about.html

His profile is around halfway down the page...

Originally posted by Stuart McDermid


I am sure there are many people out there who would take exception to Mr Hochheim being the best on the planet.
There are folks out there who have learned real knifefighting systems from people who have killed for real.

Click to expand...

O-kaaaaaaay... You obviously don't know half of what there is to know about knifefighting. Hochheim is one of *THE* definative instructors. His system is praised by countless spec ops and SWAT members *AND* he is a paid consultant to The US Army, Navy and Marines. Come to think of it, the only guy I could think of that's anywhere near compatible with Hochheim is Bob Kasper. He wrote the book on modern knife fighting. Literally. His material is used by the USMC...

Originally posted by Stuart McDermid


The various systems of WWII combatives immediately spring to mind.
Click to expand...

:yawn: Yare, yare. :yawn:

WWII Combatives are kinda outdated (don't get me wrong, I mean in some aspects, not all.) and have been included into Hochheim's syllabus. If you had even bothered to find out who Hochheim or even Sifu Dwigth Woods actually are, I wouldn't be here wasting my time... :yawn: :mad:
 
Hey Hibuke,

I am happy to debate this topic with you.
You can stop with the name calling and disparaging remarks now.

Compliant duelling:
Situation where two people face off with knives drawn and ready with time to assess the situation and formulate a strategy. This is a very unlikely scenario. The reason why I say snap cuts are for duelling is that in a real fight that possibly involves multiple assailants, you want to kill the other guy as quickly as possible. The quicklest way to do this is by stabbing and ripping the knife out at an angle from the stomach in hammer grip or from the area around the subclavian artery if in reverse. There is no time for the "knife fencing" which seems to be so popular in schools these days.

I still refuse to comment further on your Sifu Woods. I have not seen any of his material. The website gives me a bio however I would never judge a fighter by the colour of his belt/s.

I have only second hand information on Mr Hocheim and it is not that his material is no good, it is that it is too complicated.
Mr Hochheim is world renowned and probably has one of the best CQC schools out there. It doesn't mean that he is the best knifer in the business.

The best knifer in the business probably used his skills as recently as say, last week in the Phillipines during a challenge match.........

As to the Army using a particular system, this is not necessarily an indication of how good it is.

The US forces use FM21-150 for crying out loud and upon reading the manual I wish them the very best of luck with the knife fighting system shown.

There are many accounts of the FAS system working in Hand to Hand combat in WWII. Do you think the physical part of knife fighting and close combat has changed since WWII. Why? I would be the first to agree that the opponent we deal with now is not the same opponent our Father's fought abd that the situational and psychological parts of close combat are different now but the physical is just the same.
Cheers
Stu.
 
Originally posted by Hibuke


What is compliant duelling? Is it, by any chance, just a term made up by people who ignore the reality of knife fighting and instead focus on the delusion of blindly swinging and thrusting unconservatively? Snap cuts are what make the knife so deadly. Like I mentioned in another post, a knife's primary strength lies in its speed. Snap cuts enable quick, fast conservative, effective attacks (that are essential in *ANY* fight) and counterattacks that are just as fast effective and conservative...



Wushu. Used by the Red Chinese Army... As for Sifu Woods, you can check out his qualifications (so to speak) at:

http://www.szaboinc.com/about.html

His profile is around halfway down the page...



O-kaaaaaaay... You obviously don't know half of what there is to know about knifefighting. Hochheim is one of *THE* definative instructors. His system is praised by countless spec ops and SWAT members *AND* he is a paid consultant to The US Army, Navy and Marines. Come to think of it, the only guy I could think of that's anywhere near compatible with Hochheim is Bob Kasper. He wrote the book on modern knife fighting. Literally. His material is used by the USMC...



:yawn: Yare, yare. :yawn:

WWII Combatives are kinda outdated (don't get me wrong, I mean in some aspects, not all.) and have been included into Hochheim's syllabus. If you had even bothered to find out who Hochheim or even Sifu Dwigth Woods actually are, I wouldn't be here wasting my time... :yawn: :mad:
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Hi to everyone.I am new to this forum.I am writing from Italy and many of yours knife experts are new to me.I visited the site Hibuke suggested to visit.there is a clip of sifu Wood.Excuse me ,but this stuff don't impress me much.My opinion is that the reality of knife fighting is something different.Then if the pourpose was simply to show his ability in forms ,this is another point but even in this case ther is something to be said. Hope you will accept even a different point of view without start a battle .
By,Crazybear
 
Lavan said:
I have seen the sites on swords and the history of the tanto. My question is HOW was it used? Seems too awkward for much of anything especially considering that the opponent would probably have a much larger blade.
Or were there tanto fights?
Must have had more use than just seppuku.
Click to expand...
Ok, the Tanto was carried for two purpose only. Sepucu suicide and taking the head of an enemy in battle.

Samurai men cut open their stomachs and women of Samurai nobility and higher cut the jugular in their necks. That’s about it. Yeah, samurai had them and used them in a fight, but mainly they where used for these two reasons.

For example, today in kenjuitsu schools a person wearing a Tanto denotes a rank and an attitude. To be honest, the best thing you could do to learn about Tanto is to sit down with a Japanese person and ask them because they respect them enough not to have websites like this. They will point you to sword museums in Japan or books or schools of martial arts that will provide the proper information on such things. Japanese do not have websites like this or post in YouTube because they know how disrespectful it is to the subjectmatter to let just anyone spout off two cents when they are not an expert. The sad reality is that these websites cultivate bro-science or knowledge by people who don’t know what they’re talking about most of the time. Read books on Japanese culture, join the Japanese Nihonto Society appreciation group in North America, go to museums and politely ask Japanese people about this subject matter. Don’t even take my word for it, because you don’t know me and I could be full of shit. Critically think about what I’ve said and find out if I am right or wrong.
 
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One last note. Tanto in Japanese ment “true sword”. People, do your research and actually look the words up in the original language. What does that phrase mean then? It’s the true spirit of the sword to the Japanese… the Samurai, Samurai spirit of Bushi… to live for ones lord and to live as though already dead, without fear of the consequences of right actions. That’s a heavy idea! So when people talk about Tanto flippantly because they read something somewhere that wasn’t Peer reviewed or sourced from Japan, or without direct oversight from Japan (as in consequences for something sophomoric) I wouldn’t bother. Personally, I would reach out to Murray Carter. He’s actually did a Nihonto licensed apprenticeship in Japan and lived there for 15 years. He’s a wealth of good information on Tanto, that does not get posted on the internet due to the respect of the subjects matter. The name itself denotes it’s purpose of exemplary action in sepuku.

PS, read violence of mind. It’s a fantastic book on understanding knife fights by an author who has been in them and witnessed many in jail! He now has cleaned up his life and teaches combat. You want to know how to hold a knife, talk to a prisoner. They’ve been stabbing and murdering each other since prisons where invented. All you need is a toothbrush, folded paper or anything else that can cut. It comes down to who wants it more. Who puts more holes in the other guy first and bleeds out first.

Put it to you this way… You put an overweight untrained mom in a room with her kid and the martial-arts-expert who’s also a Paedophile that hurt the kid and give them both knives. I’d put my money on the mom every time. Who wants it more, who’s going to stab the other person more times. Hate, focus, surprise, violence and wanting it more.
 
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carspassby said:
One last note. Tanto in Japanese ment “true sword”. People, do your research and actually look the words up in the original language. What does that phrase mean then?
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Would you mind posting a link to this claim? In any language.

Tanto 短刀　Short Sword/knife/blade
Earlier it was called a Koshigatana 腰刀　Hip sword/knife/blade
"True sword" would be Shinken 真剣　meaning a real (sharpened) blade . The terms also means "to be serious".
For obvious reasons.
 
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