What Would Void Your Waranty?

[Rick Marchand]

Dylan Fletcher recently had a customer post a thread about a knife that broke during use. The customer was respectful and Dylan eventually chimed in with a classy response that closed the thread on a great note.(Kudos to you, bro!)

My thoughts are if I knife I deem as a "user" breaks during honest "use", the waranty is honoured(Yes, Canadians spell honour with a "u".) If it becomes known that the customer abused the knife duringf some sort of "test" it becomes sketchy(but not totally hopeless). I test my knives so folks don't have to pay to do so. I feel that if a customer has a concern about what the knife can handle... they should contact the maker and let them address the issue.

The only customer issue I have ever had is excessive rust(upon receiving a knife) but that turned out to be my mistake(did not properly neutralize the etch) and I recalled the entire batch (7 knives total... ALL were rusty).

I put this in ATG because it is not meant as promotional bit... I want to hear from some of the other makers as to how they define and hounour a waranty.

This is not about how "all-inclusive" your waranty is. I believe the maker has every right to dictate what they consider abuse. BUT I think if said maker promotes a knife to a specific target market, they should educate themselves on what to expect their knives to be subjected to.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Deweyknives]

My thoughts are if I knife I deem as a "user" breaks during honest "use", the waranty is honoured(Yes, Canadians spell honour with a "u".) If it becomes known that the customer abused the knife duringf some sort of "test" it becomes sketchy(but not totally hopeless). I test my knives so folks don't have to pay to do so. I feel that if a customer has a concern about what the knife can handle... they should contact the maker and let them address the issue.QUOTE]


So, do all Canadians spell "during" with an "f"???

 

[Deweyknives]

Okay, now to address the original intent of this thread..........

First, I was impressed with that thread also. Class act by Mr. Fletcher.

Now, I think ANY claims have to be delt with on an individual basis. Some people will take you for a ride just to see if they can. There has to be some common sense behind both 'warranty offered' and 'service expected'. A fillet knife or bird/trout is not going to baton well or pry open your tailgate. Some people may try, and expect you to take the fall when it fails. A knife has to be used with common sense, like any other tool. With that said, if you classify a knife as a 'camp knife', it must do any task asked of it in a 'camp' situation.

In most cases, I would offer to just replace a knife as long as I was approached with respect. I would request to have the broken one returned to varify WHY there was a failure. If it was my fault, you may get back two knives. But, if it was your fault [by stupidity or neglect] you would get a knife and some guidelines on its proper use and maintenance.

I think the best idea is to include a 'crystal clear' warranty sheet and discuss it with the knife transaction.

 

[Rick Marchand]

So, do all Canadians spell "during" with an "f"???

The f is silent, silly.

 

[james terrio]

With utmost respect, gentlemen...

With that said, if you classify a knife as a 'camp knife', it must do any task asked of it in a 'camp' situation.

That means absolutely nothing. I may "camp" in a $200K RV and do nothing more than open a package of imitation bacon-bits for a salad with my knife, while you may "camp" butt naked and need your knife to chop saplings for tent-poles and slay grizzlies to make furry blankets out of. Of course, I'm being silly to illustrate a point...

I think the best idea is to include a 'crystal clear' warranty sheet and discuss it with the knife transaction.

That's the best way for folks like us to go about our business. The maker and client both need to be brutally honest about what's expected, and if the maker has met those conditions, "abuse" is easy to define and promises are seldom broken.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I agree that there are many variables. I was looking for a general answer, mostly.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I pretty much warranty my knives for any casualty in normal use. In the papers that accompany a knife, I begin with a segment that says:

" This is a fine quality slicing tool. It isn't intended to cut open boxes, do gardening, or chop wood. It isn't a pry bar, a screwdriver, or a hammer. Tools for those tasks can be bought at the dollar store and thrown away when broken. If your knife blade ever breaks or chips in normal use, I will repair or replace the knife, at my option, for as long as I am able to do so. This warranty does not cover abuse or misuse.
Properly cared for and used, this knife will outlive the owner. In Japan, quality knives are considered family treasures, and passed on for many generations. "

I can only remember three broken knives returned to me.
One was a new kitchen knife where the burl wood handle was severely damaged in the dishwasher. The instructions say not to do this. - I replaced the handle, with repeated instructions to hand wash all natural wood handled knives.
Two was a brand new fillet blade that broke at an angle near the ricasso. There was no sign of damage, and the user said he was cutting the head off a fish when it broke - I replaced the knife.
Three was a several year old 10" chefs blade that broke straight across in the center of the blade. The spine was full of dings, and the edge was full of chips. Upon questioning, the user said he pounds it through frozen food and "things". I said I would replace the knife at half the original price, because it was abused. He agreed, and I made him a heavier knife out of CPM-3V.

I have re-ground many dull knives with chipped edges, and re-buffed many handles that got blah looking in good hard use. This is also covered in my warranty:

" If the edge ever gets dull or chipped in normal use, or the handle needs restoring to its original shine, I will do this for free for the life of the knife."

 

[sunshadow]

I don't currently have a written warrantee, I should probably consider one. I haven't had a broken knife come back to me since I started selling to the public (I tested for 3 years doing all of the things you shouldn't do with a knife until i I had a heat treat that would survive any abuse I could dish out on a knife up to 6 inches including cutting open a Dodge Diplomat door to get at the latch mechanism) That said, I'm sure that sooner or later something will come back, so I will likely come up with one. I will probably define abuse as prying, hammering, batoning, grinder sharpening, and heating

-Page

 

[Dave Behrens]

Using any knife too...

- "Chop", cut, smash, break etc, - bricks, stone, rock, or metal, WITH THE EDGE OR POINT (whether the blade can take it or not, is not the point for me)

- Using the tip as a screwdriver - I often will repair knives that I did not make, and this is one of the most common repairs I do. USE A SCREWDRIVER!!!

- Using a task specific knife such as a skinner, or slicer for tasks beyond their capabilities ie; batoning, chopping(wood etc), prying etc. RIGHT KNIFE/TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB.

- Lying about how you broke your knife. This one just chaps me to no end. If you are lying then you know you were doing something wrong or idiotic. Man up and just be honest. If you tell the truth I will more than likely repair or replace the blade.


Exceptions:

- If a customer wishes for a TEST BLADE, and is upfront and honest with me of what tests they will be performing then I am fine with that, and with repair/replace the blade.

- The customer was in a situation and they had no other choice then to use the knife outside of it's intended purpose.

- The knife fails because of a defect from myself, HT ing, or the steel itself.


At the end of the day, if the customer is just upfront and honest with me, I will 99/100 times replace or repair the knife. I try to make each knife (classification regardless) to be able to perform it specific task exceptionally, but as well, perform a variety of other tasks with no fear of failure.

Like Stacy said, all of my blades come with free sharpening/edge repair, and cleaning for life under intended use conditions.

 

[javand]

With utmost respect, gentlemen...



That means absolutely nothing. I may "camp" in a $200K RV and do nothing more than open a package of imitation bacon-bits for a salad with my knife, while you may "camp" butt naked and need your knife to chop saplings for tent-poles and slay grizzlies to make furry blankets out of. Of course, I'm being silly to illustrate a point...



That's the best way for folks like us to go about our business. The maker and client both need to be brutally honest about what's expected, and if the maker has met those conditions, "abuse" is easy to define and promises are seldom broken.

I have to agree with James here. The whole "any camp task" is ultra broad and vague. I'm an avid, semi professional outdoorsman (which is also vague , and I do crap to my blades in the backcountry that should never be warrantied by any knifemaker, and I'm experinced with what I'm doing.

I've dug catholes in rocky ground with my blades, point first batoned logs double the diameter of the length of the blade, and edge batoned with club sized limbs beating through locust. I've also legitimately broken a bunch of good blades.

I've also had flaw based failures of mine and other maker's knives.

I wouldn't warranty my blades to half the crap I put them through, because it's blatant abuse, especially considering I specialize in thin and light lasers, not sharpened crowbars.

I know some production knives carry insane warranties, but most in my opinion are either overbuilt to inefficiency or manufactured with such high margins as to be profitable regardless.

Esee Izula's are super popular amongst the type of guys I spent time on trail with, and they have just such a warranty. I've seen a number of them fail, from what was clearly abuse, and they were replaced, no questions. That's a selling point, and they can do that because the manufacturing costs are so low. They set the policy, so I can't blame anybody that takes appropriate advantage of it.

Custom knives are a different beast entirely, and I don't see the validity of a blanket "warranty" policy, in line with a production type business. If you're a semi-production maker, and by that I mean you have a few "models" you produce at fixed price points that's one thing, and it may make sense then, but I make one-off custom pieces. If a customer wants me to make an "indestructable" piece, I can, but I'll always defer to efficiency of general knife use and light weight otherwise. I'll replace on a case by case basis, especially if there's any indication of build or material flaw, but if there's any evidence of abuse on a blade wvere the customer didn't inform me that he wanted a "beater", then sorry.

Knives, even the smallest, thinnest ones, are tough tools, but I think there is a culture that has developed amongst some part of knife enthusiasts, which have some really unrealistic expectations about what tough is, and I think that's ultimately detracting from a culture which I feel should value a blade on it's merits as a cutting tool, and not a bullet stopper or trunk opener.

So anyway, all that to say, that I expect my knives to perform up to and beyond reasonable expectations for each piece, and I'll outline my expections of what that is to my customers, but I won't guarantee indestructibility unless previously discussed.

 

[Tait]

- The customer was in a situation and they had no other choice then to use the knife outside of it's intended purpose.

Has that ever happened?

The closest I had was one of my metalfishys (small prybar with bottle opener) was used by someone to pry open a locked door.

 

[Dave Behrens]

Has that ever happened?

The closest I had was one of my metalfishys (small prybar with bottle opener) was used by someone to pry open a locked door.

Not to me personally that I know of. But to say for example if a knife I made was used in an emergency such as prying open a car door or breaking out the windshield (and that knife was never designed to perform those tasks) and sustained damage during those events I would have no problem repairing or replacing the knife.

 

[Popsickle]

im not a knife maker but as a customer if i did something in which i knew was wrong and i damaged the knife i would contact the maker and ask to pay for a reblade if iloved the knife so much. too many people in this world trying to get things for free. If my knife fails me under normal use and is the product of something like bad heat treat or something, sure i expect it to be taken care of. very intersting to read all your thoughts here

 

[mgysgthath]

im not a knife maker but as a customer if i did something in which i knew was wrong and i damaged the knife i would contact the maker and ask to pay for a reblade if iloved the knife so much. too many people in this world trying to get things for free. If my knife fails me under normal use and is the product of something like bad heat treat or something, sure i expect it to be taken care of. very intersting to read all your thoughts here

Myself as well, if I was to break a custom knife under abusive conditions, I'd be completely honest about it and ask how much to fix it. If it was a huge company with millions of dollars like Buck for example, I have no issues saying "broke the tip off whittling oak" when in reality it actually was from prying something computer related.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Myself as well, if I was to break a custom knife under abusive conditions, I'd be completely honest about it and ask how much to fix it. If it was a huge company with millions of dollars like Buck for example, I have no issues saying "broke the tip off whittling oak" when in reality it actually was from prying something computer related.

I think I understand your reasoning but I can't say that I agree with it. Essentially, you have distorted your moral perspective. Stealing from a someone who you think can afford the loss is still stealing. Do you think stealing apples from orchard trees is different than snatching them from a market stand? I have hung out with the Buck family and can tell you that they are no different than hanging out with fellow custom makers.

 

[mgysgthath]

I think I understand your reasoning but I can't say that I agree with it. Essentially, you have distorted your moral perspective. Stealing from a someone who you think can afford the loss is still stealing. Do you think stealing apples from orchard trees is different than snatching them from a market stand? I have hung out with the Buck family and can tell you that they are no different than hanging out with fellow custom makers.

Well I see your point, and you're right. In my defense I was 17 and had no income so I fudged the details a bit to get my knife repaired as I had no idea how to do it myself. I've also done a fair bit of "growing up" since I was 17. But that was more of an aside to the main point of being honest.

Being forthright about the damage to the knife is important #1 because the maker can TELL in most cases, just as I could tell if a PC was abused. And more importantly it helps build a relationship with the maker and they will be be more amicable and likely to help you fairly as well.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Like I said... I understand your reasoning and would be a liar if I claimed never to have done the same thing.

 

[Battle Creek Knives]

well it would depend on the colour of the knife.

seriously, I think most people that step up to buy a handmade knife are on the up and up.. So honestly I think the only thing that would void my warranty would be a complete imbecile, that would be the guy that throws the knife at trees, at the ground, uses it as a step to get into his stand..these are things (I) normally wouldn't do with a knife and I wouldn't expect anyone else to, so it wouldn't fall into the 'intended' use category..

So in a nutshell I don't think I would void anything 'pending on the customer', I just hope I never sell to an imbecile

 

[Burl Source]

I think if I was making knives and providing a warranty I would keep it simple.
"If the knife breaks during normal usage due to defective materials or workmanship, it will be replaced with a comparable knife."
Or, maybe a credit of what they paid for the knife toward a new knife at today's prices.
I would also include a time frame like maybe 3 or 5 years.
I think that a warranty like "it will never break and last for ever" is an invitation for the knife to be abused.
Then when they do break it they talk crap about your knives and expect a new one for free.
Nobody wins in that sort of a situation.

As for a money back guarantee.
If they buy something over the internet and want to return it.
I am ok with that as long as it is done within a couple days.
It doesn't take more than a few minutes to look at something in person and decide if it is what they were expecting.
If someone wants to return a knife after more than a few days, well......there is some funny business involved.
I would tell them to put it up for sale on the forums.