What would you expect from a survival school?

Moine

Moine

Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Messages
494
Hi everyone,

As some of you know, I'm trying to get my survival school going. I know the stuff, I'm still fine honing the skills, practicing, practicing, practicing...

Many of you, for what I have read, are experienced in the field of survival. Some of you must have been following survival courses/seminars. I believe your input will be of great value:

What would YOU expect from a GOOD survival school?

My goal here is to refresh my views and to get original opinions on survival schools, and on what can make a good survival school excellent.

Thanks for your opinions,

Cheers,

David
 
Well, the instructors have to be knowlegable.
Patient with the students,and willing to up up with the same damn question in every class from different students.
Someone who makes the school interesting and doesn't talk down to the students, Face it. We all were green horns before.
Fair prices, but don't want to cut your nose off. Insurrance can kill you.
A good structored program that's laid out and run on that course.

A few more, but I can't think of any now. :rolleyes: ;) :p



Joe
 
What direction do YOU want to take the school in terms of philosphy?

I think there are basically two types: Those that teach you how to survive in a practical "you against nature" manner. And those that teach you to survive with nature.

I didn't mean to make it sound like "against nature" is a negative thing - just that those survival schools are the practical, situational type schools.

Those who teach with nature also teach philosophy and tend to teach more primitive skills.

I think you will have customers expecting one or the other. Depending on your direction will mostly likely dictate what your eventual customer base desires.

Would love to give you my $0.02. So, in general, what do you want to teach and then maybe we can help with the specifics?

By the way, Good Luck! I wish you lots of success!!!

:)
 
from a survival school iwould expect:
1. knowledgeable instructors that are not arm chair commandoes.
2. a training area that has a type of varying terrain and can be used without the students stepping on each other.
3. a curriculum that is well defined as far as the techniques, methods, and training tools used and needed.
4. a curriculum that may give the instructors individual time with students that are finding difficulty in a particular technique.
5. a curriculum that gives both individuals and groups the ability to find success.
6. a series of courses that are increasingly difficult so that the student may build on past experience and training to develop his skills to the fullest.
7. a series of goals that continue to test the individual and group in their problem solving, organizational and aquired skills.

thats all i can think of right now, maybe more later.
alex
 
An instructor who teaches knowledge and principles, not just techniques, so that the student understands priorities and WHEN to apply skills, and when NOT to...in other words: context. Knowing priorities and principles enables a student to be creative in fulfilling his/her needs when new and unfamiliar situations arise. Teach them to think out of the box.

An instructor who can demonstrate -- successfully -- the physical skills, and prove that they are useful and repeatable in a variety of settings...

An instructor who can communicate effectively and make certain that the students understand and can employ the skills (many can do it, many cannot teach it to others -- that is a whole separate skill in itself). Not making certain the students leave having actually absorbed the material is huge failing of many many schools (in all sorts of fields). Many instructors think that just because they imparted the info, the students absorbed it. Big mistake. testing the students ability to assimilate and use the skills at each step along the way is critical to delivering value.

An instructor who doesn't claim to be the "all-knowing" guru of survival, one who does not create a cult of personality, but is humble and learns from his/her students through interaction, rather than just "dissemination of information." Many use their position and knowledge as a "power-base" and put down students for challenging them with questions. You want an instructor whose motto is, "The only dumb question is the one you don't ask."

Plenty of dirt time, so that students walk away having been successful in applying the skills in not only a "vacuum" but in proper context of the survival priorities, in other words scenario-based training (read back to context above).

Best,

~Brian.
 
I don't expect to be preached to. I'm not one of those people who's into "Primitve Living". I love nature and the outdoors and think it's fantastic that there are primitive living books and magazines and schools. However, if I go to a "survival" school, I want to learn to SURVIVE, not start a new LIFESTYLE. I've seen alot of folks who preach and don't teach. Nobody wants to be talked down to, or forced into someone else's philosophy. Like all teaching jobs it's all about mutual respect.

I guess here is where you need to decide just what kind of school yours will be.
 
Originally posted by Quiet Bear
What direction do YOU want to take the school in terms of philosphy?

I think there are basically two types: Those that teach you how to survive in a practical "you against nature" manner. And those that teach you to survive with nature.

...

So, in general, what do you want to teach and then maybe we can help with the specifics?
Click to expand...

Thanks, Quiet Bear. Thanks everyone.

Let me explain my point of view of the whole thing, and then get into some specifics...

First of all, from a teaching point of view, I don't see a real distinction between the "you against nature" and the "you with nature" models... There are parts of nature one has to protect against (cold, heat, wind, cliffs, poisonous snakes, etc.). On the other hand, there are things that nature gives us, and that we need to recognize and use (shelter, food, water, beauty ;^). People who need to simply "get out of nature alive" and people who choose to "live with nature" both need the same skills. Some will simply choose to stay in the woods longer.

I have my own opinions regarding nature, ecology, preservation, etc. I think -- and it's pretty simple -- that we need nature to survive. We need it's resources. We need it's diversity. I believe we should take care of "our Mother", and try to heal it instead of destroying it... And that is, IMO, simply a selfish evidence. It's only about self-preservation. So yes, in some way, I'm more into the "with nature" pattern. But I think this can translate fairly simply into learnable skills. I don't want to preach over people, and I don't want to convince them that my point of view is the right one. I'm here to teach survival, not my way of life.

As for specifics, I think I will give many "levels" of survival skills. The more I think of it, the more I'll go into something like this:

The first level will based on a one night scenario. For example, you go hiking for one day, and get caught by darkness. You're not lost, but you can't go on for some reason. You choose to stop for the night. For such a night, you'll already need a few skills:

- thinking of bringing along some basic equipment...
- basic prevention.
- improvised shelter (for the woods or snow)
- fire (a few types of fires, with or without a lighter)
- finding water/water purification
- hypothermia / basic first aid / do's and dont's
- signaling (audio, flares, mirrors, etc.)

This could be covered in a two day seminar. First morning: theory. Afternoon: dirt time (making a few shelters / fires / water spots). Night in the shelter. Second morning: Theory. Debriefing the night. Hypothermia / first aid. Signaling.

The second level will be based on a three or four days scenario. You're lost, you stop wandering around and wait for rescue (they usually come within 3 days if someone knows you're out there). You'll need to have succeeded level one (or prove competence) to get into level two.

- stress management (no panic...)
- advanced first aid
- basic scent/noise/visual camouflage
- improvising fishing equipment (nets, lines, traps)
- improvising weapons for hunting / fishing
- stone work
- fishing / taking care of dead fish
- hunting (small game) / taking care of...
- smoking meat/fish
- vegetal food (edible / not)

Stress management and first aid will be covered in the first day. Fishing equipment, weapons and stone work will be thought on the second day. Fishing, hunting, and plants will be thought on the third day. No animals killed.

Third level(s) (I think I will split these in different courses) will get into specialized skills :

- tracking / large game hunting and prep. / stalking
- mountain survival specifics (meteo, avalanches, etc.)
- arid/desert survival specifics

That's about it for now...

Cheers,

David
 
Originally posted by PlaceKnives
Nobody wants to be talked down to, or forced into someone else's philosophy. Like all teaching jobs it's all about mutual respect.
Click to expand...

Agreed. As I mentioned two posts before, I do have my opinions, but I'm here to teach survival skills, not my way of life.

If someone asks, I'll talk WITH them... not TO them...

You get the point...

David
 
Originally posted by alco141
5. a curriculum that gives both individuals and groups the ability to find success.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... Thanks a lot, alco141.

I realize I overlooked something important: group survival. Relations between members of the group can make it easier for everyone... or harder. Defining collective goals might be among the hardest parts... I don't know. Just my intuition.

Any books, data, experience on that?

Again, thanks a lot,

David
 
many people use survival type training as a method of building corporate team work ethic. you may find that some of your best clients are businesses that want to get their employees to work together, so a curriculum that presents team problems and forces them to make solutions that benefit the team or group may be something that you would need to explore. althoug you wold need to teach them basic skills the problem solving would be left to them. you can market this to businesses as a way to promote team thinking.
alex
 
I would look for more short-term and situation-specific training.

I am always interested in woodcraft, but I already have my own quirky methods for that. In addition to the regular shelter/fire/water/food, I would be interested in the following:

Evacuation. How to package an injured person for the trip out of the woods. How to find a route and pass obstacles with them.

Psychology. Case studies -- what people have done, good and bad, in various bad situations, and why. It would be helpful to learn to recognize one's own attributes, and how to best use them.

Disasters (my personal favorite). Floods, earthquakes, mudslides, power grid failures. How to get to essential services or do for yourself -- on your regular route, or as a traveller. This leans toward urban survival.

Just some ideas. I personally am not going to spend money on hunting and long-term living instruction. It's just not my thing.

Scott
 
It would also be good to organise your training into a curriculum that could be interacted with on-line. For exampmle; someone may wish to participate in a beginners course, spend 2-3 months reading and researching following a specified path, then return for an advanced course. This could then be certified.

The advantages that I see in this structure are;

1) You will be building a pool of qualified instructors to cope with the burgeoning demand for your most excellent survival school

2) This will look more impressive for potential corporate clients

3) You may be able to seek training acreditation/certification through your government. I'm not sure what they have in France but in Oz we have a 'Nationally Recognised Training' system. If you design a course to meet the requirement of this system then people can use your course as recognised prior learning for other courses and in some cases be accepted as university credits.

Corporate clients again love this sort of thing. They come to see your program as a seamless part of their management/human resource training and not something that is a 'bolt on' novelty.

This makes you recession proof.

4) Working your information into a good training structure that includes evaluation will improve the quality of your delivery. What you think you are saying to trainees and what they are actually taking away can be vastly different things. The only way to know that they have learned something is good evaluation.

All the best mate - go for it.
 
Well, personally I would really love to see a school that covers:

1. Land Nav (!!!!)
2. Immediate Action for Inclement Weather (i.e., rain gear and setting up a very quick shelter using tarp, bungees, whatever)
3. Dealing with common injuries and ways to prevent them from occurring in the first place.
4. Signal and Radio work
5. Pre-Trip Planning and Gear Selection
6. Immediate Action for Fire-Building using three or four reliable techniques
7. Safe Tool Use and Maintenance(particularly knife sharpening)
8. A handful of the most useful knots, taught and drilled until they are really "owned" by the student
9. A little wildlife photography
10. Some odds and ends about field-dressing wild game, hygiene in the field, water purification, etc.
11. River and stream crossing.

Purists will say that this seems a little equipment-intensive for a "primitive living" skills type of experience, and they would be right...I would love to find a school that specializes in expeditionary survival and I think there is a niche out there for adventurers and trekkers who basically want to know what to take and how to run their gear at optimal levels of performance.

Getting lost, hurt, or forced to take shelter from inclement weather is really how survival situations happen (outside of ships capsizing, Land Rovers breaking down in the middle of the desert, or plane crashes in the Andes).

I think it is definitely true that some schools are going to focus on arts and crafts and primitive community skills and others are going to focus on in extremis survival (when the trip is not fun anymore and you just want to make it back in one piece). When you snap your ankle while hunting mountain goats, watch your buddy accidently sink a draw knife into his leg and open up his femoral, or gouge your cornea when you fall out of a tree stand, the "primitive living" stuff is over and you need to get yourself and your buddy home before the bad weather comes rolling in.

Just my two-cents. Best of luck with your business---certainly a very exciting and entrepreneurial endeavor.

PS: By the way, there are a number of groups out there running small group/adventure travel type experiences, particularly for gap-year students, who need to send their expedition leaders to receive exactly this kind of training. I am familiar with one such group in the UK---Global Challenge---and know that they take training of this kind very seriously. Another group that does is the Royal Geographic Society's Expedition Leadership Center. These are very serious people who need serious training and are willing to pay for it. You can always contract out the medical skills training until you are qualified in those areas yourself (you may already be---my apologies if you are).
 
Moine,

That sounds great! The only thing I would suggest to the basic two day class is how to make a sharp edge from rock. All you have to teach them is how to look for high glass content, what a hammer stone is, and basic percussion. At least that way if they lose thier knife, the will have the ability to make a cutting instrument. And if time permits, I would show them a basic snare and deadfall.

Good luck!!!
 
Originally posted by beezaur
Evacuation. How to package an injured person for the trip out of the woods. How to find a route and pass obstacles with them.

Psychology. Case studies -- what people have done, good and bad, in various bad situations, and why. It would be helpful to learn to recognize one's own attributes, and how to best use them.

Disasters (my personal favorite). Floods, earthquakes, mudslides, power grid failures. How to get to essential services or do for yourself -- on your regular route, or as a traveller. This leans toward urban survival.
Click to expand...

Scott,

Thanks for the input. Evacuation of injured people will be covered in basic first aid (alongside with do's and dont's).

For what comes to case studies, this is a good idea. I have many stories and testimonials at hand. I think people will learn a lot from that, and especially this will give them "free experience" for recognizing context-critical decisions... Thanks for the tip.

Urban survival... I've been thinking a lot about wether to teach it or not. I think (if I go for it) I would go for a specific course for that one. There are common points with wilderness survival, of course, but I think of it as an advanced course... Probably a three days course. Let me know what you think:

Day 1:
- Dealing with chaos: what to expect from people, the authorities, rescuers, communications, etc. How to get safe.
- Preparedness, home essentials (water, food, fuel, power, first aid, etc.)

Day 2:
- Bugging out: BOB, car BOB, getting out of collapsed structures, fires, etc.
- Advanced contextual first aid: treating electric shocks, burns. Ressucitation, preventing and treating hypothermia, perforations, etc.

Day 3:
- Team management skills, and how to organize a small scale local rescue service until the pros come in.
- Psychological trauma / shock. Helping it.

Best regards,

David
 
Originally posted by Quiet Bear
The only thing I would suggest to the basic two day class is how to make a sharp edge from rock. All you have to teach them is how to look for high glass content, what a hammer stone is, and basic percussion. At least that way if they lose thier knife, the will have the ability to make a cutting instrument. And if time permits, I would show them a basic snare and deadfall.
Click to expand...

Quiet Bear,

Thanks again, but I don't think I would have time to cover this in the 2 days... Besides, for a one night scenario, I don't think they would have time or need to trap game...

For rock works, well... that will be a great "fill up" or "bonus track" for more gifted groups/teams. I think it's possible to make a decent shelter without any tool, but it still can be interesting.

Cheers,

David
 
Belisarius,

Lots of great inputs here (except for wildlife photo... what the ... :p ?). Thanks!

David
 
In my experience, people are going to bring their cameras anyway. Most of us don't get out into the backcountry often enough for it to be routine (sadly), and I guess that is what I am getting at. Kind of a commercial/marketing hook. Hunters, backpackers---someone always seems to bring a camera.

Agreed that photography is clearly not a survival skill and, if you are looking at a two- or three-day course it should be dropped.
 
I have been through survival training,and have also spent mucho time bush side.But I would say the one most important thing to be taught(and many will disagree)is to learn to get used to being miserable.Until the time comes when you are cold,wet,hungry,and miserable,you really dont know what to expect.When you have been there in that place you learn what its like to be "properly motivated"to build fire,find water,catch game,and basically improvise to that balancing point of being comfortable and being demoralized.Teaching and learning skills is very important in all ways,but until you know what it means to "survive" at its very basic level I feel one can have no grasp over the harsh reality of a true survival situation.
 
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