What's next after EdgePro 1000 stone, and some other questions

S

sharpandsafe

Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
275
Hello,

I am getting a lot better with my Apex. I am learning that there is a lot of technique to be developed, even when dealing with this seemingly foolproof tool. What's the next step after using the EP 1000 grit stone? I have been using a DMT xtra xtra fine diamond stone with edge-trailing strokes and almost no pressue, and this seems to help, but I have ordered some EP 3000 grit tapes and a leather strop block, which I plan to load with 0.5 micron green compound. Do you think I will see an improvement with these? Do you have other suggestions? Am I making too-big of jumps in grit fineness in the final steps?

Also, I am wanting to experiment with different backings for the polish strips. I have some rock maple that I plan to make blanks out of and some very thin rubber material that I thought of gluing to blanks to provide a little "give" to make a sort-of strop out of the polish strips. Do you think this will work?

If you use edge-trailing strokes, what is your max grit size for edge-trailing? I have read that 3 micron is a good place to start with edge-trailing.

Also, I have been thinking about this: what is really the point of using ANY mounting blank at all with stones? Can't you just clamp unmounted stones directly into the EP? This is what I do with my DMT stones. I don't see much utility at all to the mounting plates, unless you are using a lot of pressure to the point where a stone snapping or slipping out of the clamp might be a concern. As an extension to this line of thinking, I am considering using 1/4 inch thick stones from Congress Tools. You could just clamp unmounted 1/4 inch stones into the EP and they would be roughly the same thickness as a mounted EP stone, you would then have 2 surfaces on each stone that you could use, which would translate into less frequent need for flattening. What do you think?

If you use Congress Tool's stones, which grit progression and stone types do you recommend? How do they wear in relation to the EP stones?

Thanks!
 
Well I'm tired right now so I can't answer all your questions now but I will say if you use some stones with blanks and some without, you're going to get a less than precise angle. Unless you get stones from congress that are all the same thickness, you're going to have varying angles when you change stones. I'd suggest getting a drill collar for your EP before you do anything else. That will make sure you get a precise angle.

I can send you the link if you're interested.
 
Thanks again, seelow for more of your typically excelent advice. I could get a collar, or just measure the angle with an app on my phone that is suprisingly accurate and measures angles in 0.1 degree increments. At any rate, I'm not too worried about keeping the angle consistent. I think I can do it with little trouble.

I'm also interested in feedback on my the refining tools I plan to use after the stones. Will the tapes and an EP-mounted strop block do the trick to get a smooth razor's edge?
 
You can go from 1k stone to the tapes, done it on M4... After second set of tape there were a few viewable scratches left from the 1k stone where it cut deep.

It doesn't have to be edge trailing only, after a minute of trailing strokes, try push strokes as well, if your pressure and angle are good you can work very quickly.

Resulting edges are capable of actual shaving with no burn, I did a show edge at 20 degrees inclusive, the time investment really raises the cost if you use an edge like that for EDC tasks... I was an idiot and shunned tapes and glass mounting plate for years.
 
sharpandsafe said:
Also, I have been thinking about this: what is really the point of using ANY mounting blank at all with stones? Can't you just clamp unmounted stones directly into the EP? This is what I do with my DMT stones. I don't see much utility at all to the mounting plates, unless you are using a lot of pressure to the point where a stone snapping or slipping out of the clamp might be a concern. As an extension to this line of thinking, I am considering using 1/4 inch thick stones from Congress Tools. You could just clamp unmounted 1/4 inch stones into the EP and they would be roughly the same thickness as a mounted EP stone, you would then have 2 surfaces on each stone that you could use, which would translate into less frequent need for flattening. What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think you'll end up with some broken stones. They're not that strong, especially at this size. Working both sides will make it worse... if you end up with a dished middle on the back, it will have no support.

Blanks are easy to make... you can get a strip of aluminum at the hardware store and make a stack in a short time. 3M77 spray to mount them, and you're good to go.

ConTool01.jpg


I tried a bunch... in the end I don't think anything was much better than the stock EP stones... but it's fun to play!!!
 
Skimo said:
You can go from 1k stone to the tapes, done it on M4... After second set of tape there were a few viewable scratches left from the 1k stone where it cut deep.

It doesn't have to be edge trailing only, after a minute of trailing strokes, try push strokes as well, if your pressure and angle are good you can work very quickly.

Resulting edges are capable of actual shaving with no burn, I did a show edge at 20 degrees inclusive, the time investment really raises the cost if you use an edge like that for EDC tasks... I was an idiot and shunned tapes and glass mounting plate for years.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will begin with trailing strokes as you mention and switch to leading strokes. I can see some sense in this. I would be inclined to add a 30 degree secondary bevel to your knife, for the shear practicality of maintenance.

cbwx34 said:
I think you'll end up with some broken stones. They're not that strong, especially at this size. Working both sides will make it worse... if you end up with a dished middle on the back, it will have no support.

Blanks are easy to make... you can get a strip of aluminum at the hardware store and make a stack in a short time. 3M77 spray to mount them, and you're good to go.

I tried a bunch... in the end I don't think anything was much better than the stock EP stones... but it's fun to play!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks, cbwx. I will take your advise and get a length of aluminum bar stock for this. Did you really find that none of the Congress Tools stones were the equal of the EP stones? They are an attractive alternative for the price, and I have seriously considered ordering some.
 
sharpandsafe said:
Did you really find that none of the Congress Tools stones were the equal of the EP stones? They are an attractive alternative for the price, and I have seriously considered ordering some.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't exactly say they were or weren't equal. When I tried them, I tried to evaluate them on how fast they cut, how fast they wore (measuring with a caliper), and if I had continued maybe a cost vs. EP stones. I found that some stones lasted longer but didn't cut as well... some cut fast but wore out quick. (Sorry I don't have my notes around to tell you which was which). The EP stones seemed to give a nice balance between cutting vs. wear.

That being said, it might be worth it to get a faster cutting stone (especially at their price) to get a job done quicker. In the long run, you may or may not save a lot of money, but you will save time. I also didn't test it across a variety of knife steels, so there may be some difference in that area also.

Like I said though, I think it's fun to experiment, and you'll probably find out things I didn't. I don't think it's money wasted, if you do any amount of sharpening, and enjoy learning new stuff.
 
Skimo said:
Like I said though, I think it's fun to experiment, and you'll probably find out things I didn't. I don't think it's money wasted, if you do any amount of sharpening, and enjoy learning new stuff.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. There is no learning experience that is the equal of actually doing. I am pretty much going to do what I am going to do anyway; I just like to have as much information as possible before I begin.
 
Saving that time only counts if you don't care about the secondary bevel getting scratched up, for working blades I try to stick with 600 grit at 30 degrees inclusive.
 
I asked Ben Dale about leather strops mounted on Edge Pro blanks before. He said they used them until he discovered the polishing tapes. He said the strops tend to give a little bit and can round the edge, whereas the tapes on the metal blanks will not. He said they have never gone back to the stops. I will say I get tremendous results with the tapes.

I have Chosera stones and don't really think they're better than the Edge Pro stones (although they are good). I usually stop at 600 for general-purpose sharpening or progress to 1000 and all three tapes for a novelty edge.

Stones are not strong enough to be used without backing. They also probably wouldn't seat accurately into the slots in the arms. I recommend just buying Edge Pro blanks. They aren't expensive and can be reused. I tried the aluminum from the hardware store. By the time I cut it and tapered it for the Edge Pro, I had a lot of time into it. Also, they weren't completely straight/even. I didn't use them.

Hope it helps,
Dave
 
Thanks Dave,

I appreciate your advice. it's good to know that I won't be missing out on too much without the Chosera stones. I am going to get the strop block anyway. I am too curious. I will be sure to evaulte the edge I get off the polish strip before going to strop, so that I can really tell what effect the strop has.
 
Well, I am really grateful for all the advice so far. Today, I ordered glass blank, 3000 grit strips, drill stop collar, and supplies for making leather strop blocks. I will start with just the polish strips and plan on making my own strop blocks once I am healed from my recent surgery.

I have a couple more questions:

Is there anything special about the EP glass blanks? Do they use tempered glass or something? It seems like they would be really easy to make with aluminum bar stock and picture frame glass.

Does anyone actually go right from the 1000 grit stone to the 3000 grit tape (skipping the 2000 grit tape)? Have there been any problems with this?

Thanks!
 
I think you'll end up with strops, homemade blanks, tapes, etc. of all different thicknesses. You'll be able to overcome the differences with the drill stop collar and angle cube (you do have one of those, right?). Eventually you'll probably get tired of the time/bother and wish you had them all the same. I like being able to change stones and blanks without so much bother. I don't even use the stop collar; Ben Dale told me he deliberately makes the higher grits a bit thinner to reach the edge a bit easier and it works for me. I'm obviously becoming less willing to spend time on these details and more on the actual sharpening.

Good sharpening,
Dave
 
wvdavidr said:
I think you'll end up with strops, homemade blanks, tapes, etc. of all different thicknesses. You'll be able to overcome the differences with the drill stop collar and angle cube (you do have one of those, right?). Eventually you'll probably get tired of the time/bother and wish you had them all the same.
Click to expand...

This makes no sense to me. As it is, the EP stones are two different thicknesses and the glass blank is yet a third different thickness. If one really wants to be sure they are hitting the same angle, then adjustments are going to be needed anyway. It's no problem at all to cut blanks of the same thickness at home using a band saw.

On another topic, I got the Hand American stropping leather. It's very hard. I don't see how it could really round an edge too much when using just light pressure for stropping. I am going to make strop blocks for the EP out of this and my rock maple. I'll compare they edge I get with these to the edge I get with the 3000 grit tape alone. Sorry guys, I just can't believe that stropping leaves a worse/blunted edge compared to the polish tapes until I see it myself.

Oh, I also got the drill stop collar. I'll see if this provides and accurate adjustment between stones and speeds the process along too.
 
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