What's that outfit that sells solid body forges??

L6steel

L6steel

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
5,855
I used to have a link to an outfit that sold solid body forges for like half what the NC Whisper forges sell for but I've lost the link. Does anyone know the company's name and have the link? Could you please post it here or email it to me? Thanks!!!
 
Hi there, L6. I emailed you a lengthy epistle last night on the virtues of forge building vs. buying. Hope the information proved useful. If you would like some plans for building a forge, let me know and I'll be happy to send you what I have.
 
Thanks Bennett!!!!!!!!!!
I've been torn between building and buying one. I've wasted so much money trying to build one thing or another when I would have been better off just buying it in the first place. That's why I've been thinking about buying a forge instead of building one. I found the low end forges. The guy sells through Ebay. You can get a real nice two burner with all the hoses and regulator and everything for $250.
I need to do something. I think I need a forge to get me back into knife making. I just can't get into it anymore and need something to fire me up.
 
If I wanted a gas forge for knife making I think I'd make one. I'm certainly not familiar with all of the commercial gas forges out there but I have a NC wisper that I use for horse shoeing. It works great for that and I use it some in knife making and general blacksmithing too but it doesn't weld very well. I have welded in it but it's pretty tough. I crank the gas way up and wait a long time. When I need to weld I go to my coal forge and of course the hot rod gas forges that some of these guys build themselves have no trouble welding.

Gosh I'd like to have a power hammer and a hot rod gas forge shaped just right for a big long billet!
 
I have the Forgemaster Blacksmith model. It works very well for general forging and bladesmithing. I know I could make a better one, but this one is easy to use and does everything I need. I will add however, that I will probably build the next forge. I'd love to make a vertical specifically for making dang-nasticus! :D
 
Build build build!!! I have built five or maybe it is six forges now for myself and friends. One charcoal, wait that makes seven, and the rest gas. Do a little reading on the internet and you can build a forge that will do anything you need to do for less than $100 easy!

Email me if you need any pointers.



Seth
 
Ok guys, you sold me on the build it myself way.
I have an old compressor tank that I cut the end off of back when I was thinking about making a forge so it will be the body. Nice tough steel and just about the right size, maybe 18" diameter and 24" long. I left the butt end solid cause I doubt I'll ever do anything long enough to stick out. I guess I need some ceramic blanket and some satanite or something to cover it with. I'd like to coat it completely for two reasons. One the health aspect and two so what little borax I use for welding won't eat away the lining.
I have most of the stuff to make the burner. I guess I should make two burners for this thing since it's so long. I'll use a fire brick to plug it up to the length I need when I'm forging so I don't waste fuel.
What I need to know is where to get the ceramic blanket and the stuff I use to coat it. I know they make a spray for it but I think I'd feel much better using something thicker and more permanent if it wouldn't affect the efficiency of the forge.
Shoot, now I'm gonna have to get some lumber and put an awning on my swing frame and just stick the swing off to the side. No one uses it anyway. Can set the forge and ""anvil", a big chunk of d2, under it and it'll keep the rain off. Got a section of telephone pole I'm gonna stick in the ground and then cut a slot in it just so the d2 sits in it on edge. I'll have a 3" wide by 12" long flat surface to work on and it's 6" wide. That should do enough to tell me if I like bangin hot steel or have any talent at it.
I wanna learn to make hawks! The ones you guys make are awesome!!!
I still don't know where you get the birch handles from but I guess you'll share that secret with time. :)
Bein as I'm a big bugger I figure on makin some big axes. :D Just gotta figure out where ya get steel chunks big enough to make em.
I been thinking about making a chain mace lately. Might be able to find a big steel ball at the junk yark and I can make the spikes on my lathe. Always did like those things. Figured if I was alive back then that's the weapon I'd be swingin. Brutal and just about indefensable.
Ahhh, I've started babblin again. Thanks for your help.
It's gonna be nice to join with you smithies, I think it'll make me happy again.
 
Hey,Michael
we need to get together and get you a forge built i have some spare junk laying around here,im sure we could get one put together between your stuff and my stuff, and we can play with the press too,Tracy
 
Well, what I figured I'd do was take a chunk of pipe or this compressor tank and wrap the insides till I only had about a 6" hole. That way the walls would be like 4" thick. Should be real efficient shouldn't it?
 
Yerwelcome, L6.
I'll get the contact info. for the place I bought my roll of Kaowool last summer. It's in mobile. I bought a roll of 2" thick x about 50' for around $45. Seriously - don't forget to call the folks at Industry Supply in Mobile. They have the killer deal on IFB(insulating fire brick), and castable refractory of all types, duraboard and all things refractory. I've seen the forges that are selling on eBay, and those are pretty nice too, and I've heard good things about them. I thought about getting one to use a portable, because my forge is to large to move around easily. But I got absolutely addicted to building them! I got discouraged trying to build one too - I'd decided to just break down and buy one, but my girlfriend (now wife, as of 2 weeks ago...) convinced me to try one last time to build it (Another big plus was getting to meet other knifemakers). That's how I ended up with castable refractory - cheap, and locally available, no special tools required, and works very well, etc... You have to use the right kind of castable, but Kaocrete or anything like it will work fine. For your tank, if you're wrapping it with a blanket insulation, you could layer the inside of the tank, and coat the resulting chamber with Satanite or ITC-100, and maybe make a sacrificial bottom out of IFB that were cut in half and ground to shape to fit the bottom of your forge (to protect it when forge welding). If you got some Kaocrete or similar castable, you could partially cast it such that you left a large chamber in the middle, wrap that with Kaowool or similar to leave a 6" diameter chamber, and coat the Kaowool with ITC100 or Satanite. Post some photos of it when you get it done!
 
Wow, this brings back the memories! I have to say I didn't have so much fun building my little forge that I've been motivated to make another, but it works so well that unless I change my habits a lot I won't need to. I built a little freon tank mini forge after the Ron Reil method. Works like a charm and gets plenty hot for welding.

One thing I'd suggest is to use Satinite to coat the kaowool, then paint that with ITC-100. This is because the Satinite is very tough and the ITC is much more reflective of heat. My first coating with just ITC didn't last very long, the Satinite coating has held up very well. I got a couple of half thickness firebrick for the floor but what's worked the best (for me, not welding) is a sheet of stainless steel formed to fit in the bottom of the forge. Easy to clean out and holds up pretty well to the little flux I've gotten on it. But it would be expensive to replace very often...
 
this article helped me a lot in designing a forge. Unless you wann do big bar stock the small one will do for 99% of your work

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Author: Randal October 16, 2000 at 05:22:20

I've talked about normallizing, annealing, and heat-treating in general out of a gas forge...thought I should clarify some things.

First, my favorite fuel is Charcoal...but to be honest, my belief is that it's romantic, smells nice, and fun, but quite inconvienient at times, so generally I'm using a propane fired gas forge for most forging and heat-treating. I have a larger propane forge for general smithing and welding big billets, or breaking down large steel stock.

This main forge of mine is very small. It's a 7 inch diameter pipe with 1/4 inch wall, and it's 10 inches long. The ends are capped with 1/4 inch plate, and in the ends, centered, are small triangular doors, with rounded bottoms on the openings...this helps to center blades and stuff in the forge while working. So, with the lining (one inch kaowool) , the chamber is 5 inch dia by 8 inches long.

Yes, it's REALLY small.

In forging work, it'll quickly heat up a 5-6 inch section. That's all I need to deal with at one time, especially doing swords. Heating more than that at a time is more trouble than it's worth, and a waste of gas. I can normallize and heat-treat blades up to around 40 inches in this forge with no trouble, using the pass-back-and-forth method. Great exercise for the shoulders.

It's fired by a simple single venturi burner mounted off-angle from the center, so the fire swirls around the lining and promotes even heat. I know a few have said this isn't nessecary...but it is, after building litterally dozens of forges, I can tell you that it gives you more heat, more efficiency, and cleaner/more even burns.

The forge is mounted horizontally, by the way.

This forge runs about 8-10 hours for me off 20# of gas, it's the best I've had so far in gas consumption, and it is capable of 2800-3000F temps if needed, but it's rare.

I ONLY forge and heat-treat with this unit, I NEVER put flux in it, or use it for any welding or soldering. It's my main forge and I want to keep it in good condition, especially for heat-treating. I have another larger forge for the dirty-stuff, like welding. It costs something like 30 or 40 bucks to build, but it's handy to have both torches and some kind of welding ability. Burner is a pipe-fitting burner, like Ron Reil's.

Now, what I find, is that when we want more heat, the "thag muscle", the big one that connects the male's mind directly to his dick through the center of the body, influences us to believe that bigger is obviously the answer. It's not nessecarily true though, as many things the thag muscle would want us to believe.

My small forge gives me enourmous "fire-power" through virtue of it's small chamber, which very intensly focuses and captures the fire and it's potential for making heat. With a needle valve positioned so adjustments can be made quickly and intuitively, it also allows for a huge amount of immediate control. When I'm heat-treating a sword, I can also watch the blade out the backside of the forge, as well as the front, and have a very good on-the-fly view of exactly where my heat is going and what areas need to be addressed. It doesn't take very long before this whole back-and-forth method gets quite intuitive and natural, it gets easier every time it seems. Still, it requires a fair amount of time and practice to get real good at it. My time is cheap to me, what the hell.

And we have an innate tendancy to get into a rush, which is a bad thing with an open atmosphere forge and heat-treating procedures...you WILL overheat something, and/or make a hot/cold spot. Trust me, you will. What I find I need to do is relax and take it slow, and move things up in temp in steps, keeping it all under my control. Don't allow the fire to dictate what's going to happen, keep control. I creep up to critical non-,ag temps slowly and deliberately, and hold the blades there as well for a time, paying attention not to be any hotter than nessecary. Cool thing is if you take it easy and come up resonably slow, the blades will appear to go non-mag at a lower temp...to an extent this is technically true, but as well it's just allowing things to stay caught-up during the process. When you heat fast and hard, surface temps blaze into the upper oranges but the core stays cooler, enough to fool both you and the magnet. so by the time you quench, you're hotter than you need to be by quite a margin, and this all adds up to extra stress and increased chances of failure in the quench... coarse grain, cracking, warping, uneven curvatures, all that crappy stuff we gotta fight with.

Remember not just to consider the outside of the steel, remember the inside as well, it's like cooking kinda. You don't want the inside un-cooked.

This all applies to salt-bath stuff and any heat-treating equiptment really, as well. Just relax and take it easy, you can't make steel do anything...you can only ask it. Steel is a "she", no matter what anyone else sez...so treat her as such and be nice. When you get demanding, she gets bitchy.

Now, the basics really are very basic. But keep in mind that within these basics is room for an enourmous amount of playing around, and thats a good thing, thats where you discover stuff. But first, getting a basic repeatable and reliable routine established is all-important, it becomes a forever base-line for you to stray from, and come back too, as it's needed. My basics are...

1) I can break-down and rough form blanks and big stock at high temps, so heats last longer and I can move maximum amounts of steel in a given time...but I have to realize and understand that this will have to be addressed later during forging and heat-treating, I have to know that I am in fact causing grain growth and a lot of stresses doing it this way.

2) I can start thermal cyling and treating right at the pont where I start forging, and I have to to get best results. I don't like getting things much over high orange...1600-1700f during heavy shaping, and I don't like letting it get to cold either, dull red means back to the fire.

3) When I get down to shaping fine surfaces and cleaning up lines and bevels, just heating to critical is where I want to go, and I lightly work the steel as it passes down to low reds and almost black...this way this fine-forging process also can add the elements of normallization to the process, and it starts everything off nicely for the dedicated thermal cycling that comes afterwards.

4) After forging a piece to stisfaction, it MUST be completely and thouroughly normallized...I accomplish this by carefully heating the entire blade, regardless of size, evenly to the non-magnetic temp and allowing it to cool in still air, to black...under 900F And I repeat this process for three complete cycles.

5) I have a high opinion of spherodized annealing...although do it in a very low-tech kinda way...it works regardless. I take the blade back up to reds, 1200-1300F, and do not allow any part of the blade to go non-mag or reach critical temps. I hold it here for around 30-40 minutes if it's a sword blade, maybe less if it's knife-sized, and deliberately cool it slowly, eventually allowing it to reach room temp. This will accomplish some very interesting things, most important are the softness of the steel, making it easy to shape and work, and how it will increase the results of the subsequent hardening and drawing cycles.

6) At this point I will do as much of the shaping and forming work as I possibly can, filing, scraping, carving, grinding...now is the time to do all of the heavy removal work, and to make sure all the lines are where they are supposed to be, and straight and crisp. It saves a crapload of work later on. It also ensures best results during hardening. IF no clay or differential hardening is in store for the given blade, iI may finish it to a high level here, perhaps 400-600 grit, to again save labour later when the blade is hard. If I am clay-treating, I drawfile everything smooth, or go no finer than 120 grit, to ensure clay adheres during the process. you CANNOT have a sharp or sharp-cornered edge when you harden, it'll likley crack. I go through great pains to make sure the edge is smooth and round. I also make all scratch-patterns ALONG the blade, instead of across...this will help prevent cracks.

7) I'm ready to harden... I'll sometimes pre-heat the tang/shoulder area on a big blade just a little bit before I start passing the blade through the forge and bringing it all up to temp...this can help this problem area on the really long stuff. I do it by simply running the blade all the way through till my bar and the blades tang are in the fire themselves, with an idle going in the forge...I just let some reds just BARELY start showing on the tang, then I start. I bring it up as even as I can, I'll adress cold/hot spots as they occur by stopping in the fire for a second, or moving faster past a hot spot...whatever feels good, untill I get to a nice, even upper red, just below non-mag. At this point I'll add a little more fire untill I start to get that orange glow along the edge, then back off a bit untill It seems this is all the temp I'll get on the edge...usually you can simply keep going and wait for the rest of the blade to catch up, sometimes a little extra tweak of gas will be required... the aim is to get critical temp even throughout the entire blade, and to hold it there for a bit, a couple of minutes is good, without going any hotter than nessecary.

8) then I quench. I have a nunber of methods for the quench, but the two basics are oil and water. In both cases it will help to pre-heat the quench...100-120F in both cases...it'll reduce the shock and increase the success, although room-temp water and oil can be used succesfully if you got a particularly well-developed thag muscle. After all the rolling and boiling has stopped in the quench, then IMMEDIATELY go to the draw, or tempering cycle. Waste no time.

9) I draw three times, more if some straightening is required, at temps rangeing from 300-600 and for usually half-hour cycles.

10) I have a scotch.

That is just the basics, and it's my own base-line. I do at times vary some of it in order to explore ideas or look for specific results, but it's all based on this set of steps and usually does'nt stray to far.

It's also where I think we should all start...BEFORE fancy gear or big words, it'll allow you to get to a point where mettalurgical explanations and concepts will make sense, because you will already have seen and expierienced them. It makes the salt-baths and big words work a whole lot better if you can do it the "hard way" and no what it is you should be looking for during the processes.

One last thing, if you are going to forge and heat-treat yourself, you really may benifit by choosing a very small selection of steels and sticking with them, at least for a few years, before you try and use a whole bunch of different stuff.

I highly reccomend 1050 for tools and such. I also reccomend it for a starter steel when clay-hardeneing Japanese-style stuff is concerened.

5160 is a good basic big-knife and sword steel.

1084 and 1095 are great all-around blade steels, and also, my favorite all-around steel these days is Howard Clark's 1086M. If I could only have one, it would be the 1086M.

And L-6 can be a good one to explore, however, it's problematic sometimes, so best start with the simple ones first.

Hope this didn't bore anyone... it helps me to go over the basics sometimes too, why not here I figure

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top