What's the difference?

tinfoil hat timmy

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I'm sitting here on break at work in a machine shop, and popped in to see that the EDC will be at Bladeshow in both 3v and 4v flavors. Awesome!

My question is what is the difference exactly? What properties of the finished product are affected? How are they affected?

Thanks in advance!

Also, if anyone would be willing to try and score me a shiv..... Meh. I'll not hold my breath on that one. Hahaha.
 
4V is tough, 3V is tougher
3V (delta) has good edge stability, 4V (optimized) is even better
3V has good wear resistance, 4V is better
3V has good corrosion resistance, 4V does not
Knives made in Delta 3V are expensive, knives made in optimized 4V are very expensive.

Delta 3V is a better all-around knife steel for most people, but 4V works well in high performance cutting applications where you're willing to trade some toughness wiggle room and corrosion resistance for the best edge durability and very good wear resistance. Optimized 4V will out cut Delta 3V, though we've managed to break a few in rough testing and it does rust.

All else being equal, you can cut through a nail with optimized 4V with less edge damage than Delta 3V, and that is saying something. It is worth pointing out that industry standard heat treat 4V does not give this performance (we tested it and variations of it) so any prior experience someone may have with 4V may not be applicable.

Most people are going to prefer Delta 3V due to the larger margin for error in rough use and easier maintenance, but for hard core knife nuts optimized 4V is a very interesting material. I would take 4V into a cutting competition and 3V into a war zone.
 
Do you think you'll ever consider 4V as an option for a skinner Nathan? Or do you think your D2 would still be superior for such a blade?
 
4V is tough, 3V is tougher
3V (delta) has good edge stability, 4V (optimized) is even better
3V has good wear resistance, 4V is better
3V has good corrosion resistance, 4V does not
Knives made in Delta 3V are expensive, knives made in optimized 4V are very expensive.

Delta 3V is a better all-around knife steel for most people, but 4V works well in high performance cutting applications where you're willing to trade some toughness wiggle room and corrosion resistance for the best edge durability and very good wear resistance. Optimized 4V will out cut Delta 3V, though we've managed to break a few in rough testing and it does rust.

All else being equal, you can cut through a nail with optimized 4V with less edge damage than Delta 3V, and that is saying something. It is worth pointing out that industry standard heat treat 4V does not give this performance (we tested it and variations of it) so any prior experience someone may have with 4V may not be applicable.

Most people are going to prefer Delta 3V due to the larger margin for error in rough use and easier maintenance, but for hard core knife nuts optimized 4V is a very interesting material. I would take 4V into a cutting competition and 3V into a war zone.
There are a lot of characters here at the forums that think they know everything there is to know about knives, blades and steel; they need to stop posting for a solid 4-6 months while they read every single one of Nathan Carothers' posts - they might actually learn something for once. :D
 
I would certainly be interested in a CPK 4V knife!

It's interesting, Nathan, that your optimized 4v was able to fare better than the D3V in your nail cutting test. If asked, without knowledge of the result, which steel would perfom better, I know a lot of folks would (wrongly) guess 3v. I guess what I mean is that it's sometimes easy to regard "toughness" and "edge stability" as two steel characteristics that are positively correlated to each other. IOW, it's tempting to conclude that the steel with greater toughness will inherently have better edge stability than a steel known to be less tough. It is easy to blend them together (in your head like how you might rate a certain steel's performance as compared to another. I've certainly done this!)

As you've demonstrated, that is not always true. Toughness and stability of the cutting edge are distinct and seperate aspects of a steel. (Why that is true, I don't know)
 
I would certainly be interested in a CPK 4V knife!

It's interesting, Nathan, that your optimized 4v was able to fare better than the D3V in your nail cutting test. If asked, without knowledge of the result, which steel would perfom better, I know a lot of folks would (wrongly) guess 3v. I guess what I mean is that it's sometimes easy to regard "toughness" and "edge stability" as two steel characteristics that are positively correlated to each other. IOW, it's tempting to conclude that the steel with greater toughness will inherently have better edge stability than a steel known to be less tough. It is easy to blend them together (in your head like how you might rate a certain steel's performance as compared to another. I've certainly done this!)

As you've demonstrated, that is not always true. Toughness and stability of the cutting edge are distinct and seperate aspects of a steel. (Why that is true, I don't know)
Un hardened mild steel is pretty tough, as defined by joules of energy absorbed in an impact fracture such as a Charpy V notch test.
S30V has good wear resistance, as defined by micro grams of material eroded in a sliding abrasion test or cards cut in CATRA testing.

It's funny that people can take the values from tests like that at face value but cutting a nail is hype because it doesn't generate a quantifiable number, even if the result is repeatable and comparatively useful.

Normal use is cutting wire, stripping insulation, cutting dryway tape, cutting carpet, prying staples, opening boxes, shaving burrs, cutting tent stakes etc. These all apply varying degrees of lateral stress inducing chipping and edge roll that would be impossible to measure with some of the more conventional tests. But what we have found through cut testing and experience is too much carbide is a bad thing, but you want some. And too hard is a bad thing, but it needs to be pretty stinking hard to support a fine edge. If you start with a good steel and get your microstructure right you can go pretty hard. Much harder than people realize.

3V was designed to be tough but its out-of-the-box edge stability is mediocre. It took real work to get good fine edge stability in Delta 3V, and it's still only approaching the edge stability of really good W2. But it does it with a level of toughness and wear resistance that W2 can't begin to touch.

One of the things we did to 3V was push the aust time and temp to force some plate martensite for more of a crisp edge (it's designed to be lath). Our tweaks were never about toughness, always about edge durability in rough use. These tweaks caused issues with RA which require tweaks of their own while avoiding the secondary hardening hump (again, in order to achieve that crisp edge).

4V is plate martensite out-of-the-box. And the larger carbide volume fraction actually increase compressive yield strength. But it's still 85% iron, compared to 75% for something like S30V. It achieves a lot of its impressive wear resistance through old-fashioned very hard martensite, not tons of carbide dumped in. This approach gives both higher toughness (in the context of a knife edge), and the ability to support a thin edge at higher hardness without being chippy. They didn't add nickel for toughness meaning it can work without the secondary hardening hump (with some other tweaks). The end result was a great deal of potential for a steel that is a stripped out race car next to 3V. I'll always like 3V better, but 4V is pretty amazing in some applications (if given the right adjustments, which are pretty straight forward).
 
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Thanks for that answer Nathan. I gather that grain structure along with carbide size and distribution throughout the matrix are extremely important for a steel's performance. Of course, coupled with the HT, tempering, possible cryo treatment and other tweaks, this is where the soul of the blade is born.

Even in what I would call "everyday" or common use, I've noticed that your 3v stands tall in a market flooded with "good" or "okay" 3v. D3V would be what I would describe as "great" 3v.

Here's what I noticed: in my day to day work as a plumbing contractor, I cut plenty of material ranging from cardboard to PEX tubing to PVC to drywall. Each time, the D3V has held its sharp edge for longer *and* at a lower angle than regular 3v. The delta would deburr the inside of a section of copper 3 quarter inch tubing in a pinch with me not worrying about the tiny chips that would appear in other 3v. And it would cut after that. Other 3v would do it too, but there would be a shiny section of pretty dull edge and possibly some of those tiny chips.

Yours is overall a better--far superior I believe--material than "industry standard" 3v. Regarding 4v, I have no real experience. I own a Bark River (Gameskeeper? I can't remember) in 4v but only bought it because it was the only example I could find in that steel. Supposedly the reviewers claim it has superior edge retention, but I heard the same stuff about regular 3v. I have not used it yet.

I guess this can be boiled down to the fact that in real world use by a real guy cutting many different materials (sometimes bordering abuse), D3V has proven to be the better performer by a large, albeit qualitatively obtained, margin =)

I do not have a lot to say about the metallurgy because, admittedly, there are some parts I don't understand, but I am learning more each day!
 
Hey Nathan,

would you state that, after all your tests, that INFI is a bit tougher but with a bit less edge stability, compared to your D3V?

And between those 3 (D3V,D?4V and INFI) steels, you have a almost perfect selection for type of duty? (From savage to competition?)

I like Z-wear a lot too, that maybe is a mix of 3V and 4V.
 
I have never seen 'soul' in the chemistry breakdown of any steel, do I need to order the special decoding glasses?;)
 
Hey Nathan,

would you state that, after all your tests, that INFI is a bit tougher but with a bit less edge stability, compared to your D3V?

And between those 3 (D3V,D?4V and INFI) steels, you have a almost perfect selection for type of duty? (From savage to competition?)

I like Z-wear a lot too, that maybe is a mix of 3V and 4V.

They're both insanely tough, but Infi is a bit tougher than Delta 3V with similar corrosion resistance and edge stability but lower wear resistance and lower overall edge retention. I can't say one steel is better than the other, but I can say that for my own use I can't break either of them without a big pry bar and I find the additional wear resistance of 3V useful.

Jerry runs Infi a little softer which is better suited to thicker geometry. I think it takes a little higher hardness to support thin geometry. It's my understanding he used to run it a little harder. I think Infi in the mid to low 60's might be a very cool material. If I were able to I would certainly consider using it for some applications.
 
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Thanks, as always very usefull informations.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you ask your/a mill to make an ingot or sheet of INFI? I mean we know the composition and you have some scary skill in steels HT, can't be so hard to make something 99,9% like INFI...

Or is this a thing makers don't do... a sort of unwritten rule? :)

PS.. will you make soon some knife in D4V?
 
I could probably clone it if I wanted to, but it's a little on the ultra tough low carbon end of the spectrum and I think it's possible to over do that so I'm gravitating in the other direction. I have a lot of respect for Infi, but conventional electro slag re-melt technology is a little long in the tooth. There are other good options already available without resorting to fishing in somebody else's pond, and modern steel making technology can achieve materials with some carbide content that retain high levels of toughness through carbide size shape and distribution that isn't possible with previous manufacturing processes. I'd use it in some applications (it is a wonderful material), but overall I think there are materials that are a better fit for me and what we're doing here.

That said, I'll bet it machines well. I envy him that. I used to use a lot of A2. That stuff was a dream to machine compared to 3V and 4V and I'll bet something so similar to A8 would be even nicer. That would reduce a lot of headaches. 3V machines a lot like D2 (not great) and 4V might actually be worse. I wouldn't choose a material based on its ease of machining, but I do miss "free machining" steels.
 
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I see, thanks for the imput, makes sense.

That's why I love INFI on big choppers... you will, hit dirt and rocks... the easy-ness of getting back the edge after a deep damage, is very important to me. I'm surrounded by granite in my woods, that rock is a killer.

But I'm looking forward to try your 4V on a medium-short knife.
 
I do believe that years ago, Jerry Busse did indeed have a couple models that he ran in the low RC 60s. That was before I got into Busse knives though. I know because from time to time, the subject comes up in the subforum. I wish I could remember the models' names and characteristics. I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will chime in !
 
One was the Boney Active Duty. 60-62. I would rather go with CPK D4V at that thickness if only for its wear resistance.
 
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