What's up with kitchen knives?

I

itrade

Joined
Jul 3, 2002
Messages
645
Not many folks here seem to make kitchen knives (or post 'em anyway). Our pal Rhinoman is probably the most proficient maker. But, other than him how many of us put our all into everyday knives for the kitchen?


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276874

I just ran this post in the gallery and got a couple of comments - that's fine. However, looking thru there I don't think I've seen a single other kitchen knife. Knives 2003 has, what, 2 pages devoted to kitchen knives. What's the deal?

Can you name one other type of knife, in your house, that see's more use? I mean how many deer do you clean in a year? Compare that to how much venison and beef steak you sliced last week at the dinner table.

(I'm trying to convince myself to make more kitchen stuff here so work with me. ;) ;) )

Also, a kitchen knife sees more abuse than about anything else. (How many times in the last week have you actually used that bowie?) You need to put your all into a kitchen blade. Chop a pine 2x4 - so what? Watch my wife try and separate frozen chicken breasts - prying with the tip - that's abuse, gentlemen. Corrosion resistance out in the forest - child's pay. Try leaving that prized hunter under a damp dish towel for a week.

I know, I know most of the knives you make never see dust let alone whittling oak. But we still try and convince ourselves that collectors just might cut something. So, we make these great, beautiful, hard working knives. But no one really knows if they perform.

Why don't we put our steel where our mouth is. Make a kitchen knife and give it to that family of 9 across the street. What will it look like in a year?

I should talk, my poor wife uses a set of Henkles. I've spent more time putting the edge back on than it would take to make a real knife.

If you'll excuse me, I have some ignoble knife making to do.......

Steve

(PS just having fun.)
 
Steve, maybe it is hard to make money on a most kitchen knives, for what most folks want to pay for them. The knife you made is really great, and of course commands good bucks. Most of the kitchen knives I have made will never be used. Folks here like a conversation piece in their kitchen; a fairly small knife on a small wood stand. You have made a good point, we are probably missing a good market.
 
I agree with John, would be nice to see more custom/handmade kitchen knives. I'm starting to cook a bit more, and find it hard to find a good one. I'd love to see some more pieces like the beautiful one posted in John's post in the gallery. I plan to pick up a few in the future as the production stuff just doesn't cut it(no pun intended).
 
I've made a couple but made them too thick and I end up using something else. Yours is fine Steve! You can go ahead and send it to me for additional testing if you like! I promise to send it back. Soon. I will.

Meanwhile, let me tell you that grind is something else. You can't tell me you did that for anyone but yourself. :D Selfish!

But I agree with you 100% - kitchen knives are the only ones that really get used and that's where our skills will really be tested.

Don't mind me if I keep making knives for sock drawers! I like my little cardboard cutting tests and happy big eyed collectors. Who needs some critical cook only caring how well your work works?

:D

(We all do. Thanks Steve.)

Dave
 
I wonder if some chefs would actually use a stainless damascus knife on their TV show if you sent them one? Bamm! look at this knife Bammm!, I just cut my finger off:D

Mark
 
Instead of the $29.99 commercials it would now be $299.99. They'd probably be a lot more fun to watch though :D
 
I make a full line of kitchen knives and they sell well but the price point is the problem. Fortunately there is a market in the baby boomer crowd who appreciate quality.
 
Originally posted by Gouge
I wonder if some chefs would actually use a stainless damascus knife on their TV show if you sent them one? Bamm! look at this knife Bammm!, I just cut my finger off:D

Mark
Click to expand...
I would like to watch that one,too!
 
You are a troublemaker Steve!:D My wife has been nagging me to make her kitchen knives for years. If she sees this post, I'm doomed!:p
 
Good post steve,

great looking knife too. Yes the only fixed blade knife unless your a commercial fisherman that gets used reguraly is the kitchen cutlery

and you are right kitchen knives take much more abuse than the hearty outdoor stuff.

Just like that little canadian belt knife I just finished Will I ever realy need it?? (my folder works for 99% of any outdoor cutting I do) will it be on my side in a life and death situation probably not , but kitchen cutlery I use daily and I have to agree commercial cutlery although they work they also leave alot to be desired but lets face it the $4.00 dept store serrated knife will cut a tomato just fine for awhile somtimes years.

My mother in law has been using the same serrated knife thats never been sharpend for 20+ years.

Im only a hobby builder but I can see where making fine cutlery almost isnt cost effective.

Like George said the baby boomer sect likes high end stuff and have the money to procure it.

just like my fishing rods most that buy them are either serious fisherman that want a fine tuned hardworking stick or a baby boomer occasional fisherman that wants somthing that no one else has (at least on that stream)but im afraid to say that these types are far and few between as most just go to the sporting goods store.

the funny thing with fishing rods actually fly rods is that I can make a better stick for less $$ than a high end commercial rod.

Is it the same with a kitchen knife?.


how many hours on average does it take to finish out an 8" chef No bolsters??

"John"
 
You guys are funny. Damascus on a cooking show? You're right about what would happen.

Also, I see the point about price. Custom kitchen knives are way more than Macy's. But then again a custom hunting knife is more than a Buck. Yet more folks are interested in them.

I'm glad George has a line. It shows me that serious makers do take these knives seriously.

Maybe it's just that on average hunters/outdoors folks have more appreciation for good steel than the average cook.

Still, looks like an un-tapped market.

Steve

PS Regarding that knife. I made it for someone else, and have to finish another - ouch. There are 2 more I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to tell them no in S30V.

What I've learned in the last year with that 'junk' is in the finer grits you must use a tremendous amount of pressure. On that 2" wide bevel I HAD to use a steel sanding block only 1/4" wide to get even 320 to cut.

Divewize, I spent at least 10 hours AFTER I left the grinder hand working the bevel on that blade using a combination of water stones and SC paper. I told the new owner if he so much as touches that blade with a scotchbright pad I'd hang him.

One other note. That blade does not have a plunge cut. The tang has the same bevel as everything else. In a way that makes it easier to hand sand, because you can change angles without dealing with the plunge. But it also gives the finished product a different look.

santoku5.jpg
 
I think there are three things.

One is that there are master traditional knife makers all over the place, selling great blades for very little dollars. There is an uninterupted tradition of Japanese art level knives out there, for instance. For 2oo bucks, you can get a lot more knife in this market, than from the guy with all those different looking knives in diamonwood at your local craft show. In my kitchen we have miracle blades (hey for 69 bucks you just have to) right up to lower priced Japanese knives around the 100 buck mark. I know what the better grade knives would be like, judging from the 200 blades I have in my woodshop. In between we have Sabatier, Henkles, various no name HC, and some custom stainless from "knifemakers". The latter are the last to be used.

Secondly, it is a practical users market. There are a lot more pro chefs with shows on TV, than skinners, and fighters. They make deals with makers, or just influence buyers, and being pros they may not require either impractical levels of ornamentation, or a wild new idea every five minutes.

The real action in knife making is fantasy related, be it fighting, or hunting. It's something to dream or imagine about. As hotelier/fisherman Charles Ritz said "the best fishing is in books". I'm not talking fantasy knives per se, but just the stuff of dreams. RL showed me this great tactical folder made by an NY full time Chef. I wonder if the chef also makes cooking knives.

Oh and there could be a forth reason. Men buy most custom knives, and women mostly cook. If men did most of the housework, I wouldn't settle for anything less than a Terzulo/Nealy colaboration tactical broom myself, titanium telescoping handle, and carbon fiber extreme use bristles.

Anyway if it hasn't happened with kitchen knives, then it's wide open for it's own Loveless to come along. Marketing wise that person would have to probably walk among chefs. These folks and the buyers that serve them, probably aren't coming, in large numbers, to the SHOT show
 
Things have probably changed, but back in 1981-2 or so I was at the Anaheim knife show(it's now called Blade West), and there was a maker who had a complete set of kitchen cutlery in a very nice block that he had also made.
IIRC, it was an 8 piece set, and beautifully done.
He had a price on it of $125.00. I asked him which knife that price was for, and he said the whole set, :eek: :eek: . He then stated that he was never going to make kitchen cutlery again as it was impossible to sell, and he was trying to recover the cost of materials, plus a couple of bucks.

I only had $10.00 to my name and couldn't get them, but when I left a few hours later, the set was still on his table.

That made a lasting impression on me.:eek:

I wish I could remember the makers name.:confused:
 
Ahh yes kitchen knives. There is some demand for them if you can make one thats not only better performance wise, but also eye catching without going to far past the price of commercial stuff. Makes it hard on you full timers.
I've sold 6 knives now and have orders for a few more. Big demand for paring knives from all the women in my family. I gave one to my sister for her birthday and my aunt asked to buy one like it, so I tried to just give it to her and she refused it as a gift and insisted on buying 3 of them :eek: Several others have expressed interest now as well.

I think it would really help sales if your in an environment that you can let people actually use your knives to cut something too. Knife nuts understand performance and we kind of take it for granted sometimes, when they're willing to buy something just by looking at pictures and reading reviews. The folks that have been using dull knives all their life don't understand, because they haven't done it before. They think those wonder wacker kitchen knives off the tv really are the best, "they saw through drywall man! DRYWALL!". Those are the people who aren't really blown away until they get to pick up that properly ground properly sharpened knife and feel the quality, and see how it cuts.
 
Steve, first let me say that I love your knife. ( also the one with the black bolsters ). This is a great thread and it is quite ironic that I just came from my son's house, and he was just raving about the performance of the fillet knife that I made for him last year. He wasn't using the knife to fillet fish, he was using it to process deer. He was boning and slicing the meat to make jerky. It is ATS34 and Paul Bos heat treated. If you want to see what a knife will really do, try it in the kitchen for prolonged period of time. All the major named knives that I have used in the kitchen were all too soft for me except an old Sabatier carbon steel knife. I just have to make an S30V for the kitchen.
 
Itrade something to think about is the concept of weddings.
I made a large combination wedding cake cutter and turky slicer. The knife becomes a infrequent use knife bought out on special occasions.

Run the idea past your local high end bridal shop. I have seen cake knives in bridal shops they looked a bit loud and cheap. A custom may be what they are looking for. Throw in the kitchen knives as well.

If worse come to worse find someone that wants to get married and you have a gift waiting.
 
Protactical,

Very good description - I think you hit the nail on the head with the fantasy thing. Looking in myself I can dream about caping that trophy elk with a handmade knife. It's a better dream than slicing an apple for the kids, again.

Mike,

A gun/knife sure isn't the place for kitchen stuff. I believe Rhino sells mostly at craft shows and such. And the rich don't even go there.

Marketing high-end, high-performance kitchen stuff would take some doing. You'd have to open your own channels.

hmmmm.....

Oh well, I have a few folks that appreciate really fine stuff. We'll see how long it lasts.

Steve

PS I'd better make something the wife can use - or else.
 
I dont know what your problems are i make 250 to 300 kitchen knives a year(paring to 12 inch chef) and have no trouble moving them:) :) you just have to get your marketing right.you are right about testing though make your wife a kitchen knife and check out the abuse it gets also make a point of using it every week to check how sharp it stays will open a few eyes
 
Marketing high-end, high-performance kitchen stuff would take some doing. You'd have to open your own channels.
Click to expand...

Well that never hurts, but here's one established outlet for exactly those products - Bladegallery.com has an entire gallery of high end chef's knives for sale (88 items currently and 19 of those are new items) and that doesn't include the Japanese style knives gallery which includes lots of kitchen knives as well.
Here's a link to the kitchen knives gallery -http://bladegallery.com/knives/type.asp?code=qkitchen&display=Knives+for+Chefs
 
I had a nice romp through the bladegallery, and the most expensive kitchen knife was 3500 dollars, a spectacular pocket knife for a wine stuart. But I think one would get pretty tired pulling corks without any leverage assist I could see (or i'm just to slow to see how it works). The 500 dollar sushi knives on the other hand, are somewhat plain, but they have evolved in conjunction with the actual food preparation craft, and the available sharpening stones for maybe centuries. Tough market.

I stick by my fantasy concept, but at the same time, the kitchen is the biggest fantasy of all. Whenever I see one of these reno shows I think, that there have never been as fancy kitchens as these in history. Yet people have never eaten as few meals at the home (for people who live there). That is something we should be able to tap into...
 
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