What's YOUR Definition?

jhiggins

jhiggins

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
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Dan "Pendentive" Koster's thread about stainless San-Mai has got me thinking. Not to intrude on his thread, I reckon to start my own. What is your definition of what true San Mai should be? Are there any printed works on the subject? What is its origin? Is it lazy-man's damascus? Do we have any San Mai experts in the crowd here?

Enlighten us. :)
 
I'm not an expert, and I'm not even a pounder (yet), so I'm not speaking from a position of authority, but I'm interested in this stuff so I'm gonna chime in any way.

Far as I know, San Mai is Japanese for "three layer." San definitely means "three," at any rate. It's laminated steel, with a thin layer of very hard and wear-resistant steel sandwiched between two thick slabs of something tough and ductile. It's different from some (but not all) Scandinavian laminates which only have two layers.

Lazy Man's Damascus? Again, I've never tried forging, but I would think that keeping a skinny layer of material straight throughout the forging process would be a bit of a challenge. Likewise, the laminar welds that hold the blade together should be sound and uniform all along the blade. Would you be able to get away with going over them again and again the way you do when layering damascus? Or would you have to get it right the first time?
 
That's what I understood, just a three layer laminated blade.The scandinavians have been making it for a very long time .I wonder how they kept things straight doing it by hand.I assume it all started when good hard steel was hard to come by so they used an insert of the good stuff and covered it with soft steel or even iron.
 
One reason that san mai is popular, is that you can have an edge harder than you could with a monosteel, and still retain ductility.

I've made san mai before with a 52100 core, and wrought iron buffer (both sides) that had an edge hardness of 63 RC. I demonstrated it's superior ductility by using the knife as a throwing knife, it's been used in a dozen or more competitions, and I haven't had to sharpen it, or repair it once.

Tony
 
I think it looks cool (see Laredo7mm's San Mai fighter), which we all know is the most important reason for making knives, anyway! :D
 
Like you, Jeff, I would love to know more about it. I've attending many a hammer-in asking for help on how to "get it right" and have yet to be satiated.

Seems like there is ten times more info/help on making damascus, than doing san-mai...traditional or not.

Anybody know what the scandinavian word for the lamination process is?
 
San mai is "three layer",but may be many layers.Any combination with a harder edge is san mai.Some laminating techniques are: kobuse san mai kitae; wariha tetsu kitae; hon san mai kitae; shihozume kitae; orikaeshi san mai kitae; ..... (I hope that cleared things up).Some are formed from 5 plates of steel to give the core,edge,back,and sides diferent properties.
Stacy
 
San Mai is a very good method of constructing steel. Clad steel is usually under .4% Carbon. You can use an engineered clad; like 15N-20 clad on 52100 is good. The synergistic effect of the combination of the steel depends on the relationship of thier thicknesses. I often make the core so thin it is not visable after sharpening. I worked on the process for several years to be able to provide a high performance Mosaic Damascus blades. I've done San Mai Billets that have increased in surface area from 25%- 500%; I did build a 12 inch wide rolling mill to be able to work billets in both directions to preserve the Mosaic pattern. The upsides of this synergistic material far out weigh the difficulty making it. Most of the best weapons of many cultures were made with San Mai techniques...Good Luck...Ed
 
I seem to remember some fellow named Ed the sheep lover with a San Mai blade winning darn near ever rope cutting compition he entered.
 
Gentlemen, please keep talking about and making laminated blades. Since I started buying Fallknivens I’ve become a convert to the joys of laminated blades, and I would like to learn more and buy more.
 
I was about to say you should ask FES (aka Ed Schempp) about this, but see that he already posted.

His post looks like a simple little paragraph.... but there's been a LOT of blood, sweat, tears, money, trials and tribulations in getting to where he could give you that answer.


I REALLY WISH it had pictures of both the steel he's making AND the rolling mill he designed and built to make it. It would BLOW your mind!!!

The rolling mill is really something to behold. Ed is taking san mai to all new heights.

The problem with Ed's method is most of you suckers can't grind a blade evenly enough to get the edge dead-center, full length, to utilize the core :D :p :D

-Nick-
 
Yep Mark, that be the beast!!! I didn't know it had been posted here before.

I got to run it at one of Ed's hammer-ins, and it's really something you have to see/use to appreciate.

But since you're moving to the ugly side of WA over where Ed lives, you'll be able to go look at it yourself :p :p :p

Be careful though, FES will corrupt you even more than you already are!!! :D

-Deuce- ;)
 
NickWheeler said:
The problem with Ed's method is most of you suckers can't grind a blade evenly enough to get the edge dead-center, full length, to utilize the core :D :p :D
Click to expand...


Watcha sayin?

"it's supposed to have the curve to it... it improves the cutting utility for right hand users such as yourself.... wait, you're left handed, funny, I meant left handed...."

HeHeHeHe ;)

Tony
 
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