When did Damascus Steel come to folders?

[WhittlinAway]

It struck me this morning that I can’t remember seeing any older traditional folders with Damascus steel blades. That could be a case of selective observation and memory, but I’m wondering whether its use in folders is a relatively recent phenomenon. Anyone know?

 

[5K Qs]

Greg, just for fun between grading pages of a final exam, I searched the "Old Knives" thread for the word "damascus". I don't think I saw any photos of damascus steel blades, but I did find several interesting references to Dasco, the Damascus Steel Products Corporation, that may go back to 1922. But I didn't try any follow-up to see if the company actually made products using what we call Damascus steel today.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/old-knives.527126/page-31#post-5880256

- GT

 

[Rich S]

I've a French damascus folding bowie from the mid 1950-60's. The French were making damascus knives long before that; I assume other folders as well.

Rich

 

[Will Power]

An interesting question´, I have a suspicion that knifemakers in Turkey, Iran (Persia) and maybe even Russia may have been using it from the early c20th.

 

[kvaughn]

The first ones I remember seeing in traditionals were Case and some of Jim Parker's stuff. --KV

 

[MerryMadMonk]

It struck me this morning that I can’t remember seeing any older traditional folders with Damascus steel blades. That could be a case of selective observation and memory, but I’m wondering whether its use in folders is a relatively recent phenomenon. Anyone know?

It's a good question. I don't know the answer.

W.R. Case & Sons first used Damascus in 1989 according to Steve Pfeiffer, in Collecting Case Knives. (That date coincides with the very brief ownership by Jim Parker).

 

[5K Qs]

I did more intermittent googling and skimming through online articles of unknown accuracy. Quite interesting, since I knew almost nothing about Damascus steel before today. Several sources I read claimed that Damascus steel originated in India ca 300 AD, but the technique was lost by about 1750. What we call Damascus steel today is apparently not made using the original process/materials. Knives made by the first of the modern methods were apparently shown in 1973.

If that info is correct, Greg's observation that he couldn't recall "old" examples of Damascus makes sense.

- GT

 

[W.M.B.]

It would be surprising if it originated in India, being called Damascus steel...... But then
Boston college is a university Cambridge. ...

 

[WhittlinAway]

5K Qs thanks for doing some research. I hope it was an enjoyable respite from grading. What you found was very interesting. Also, great idea searching in the Old Knives thread. I wish I'd thought of that.

R Rich S thanks for the information. I've never heard of a folding bowie, but now that I have and that it's French, I can't help but picture it as an imaginary Opinel No. 30.

Will Power interesting. Is there something in particular that makes you suspect that, or is it just a hunch?

K kvaughn and MerryMadMonk thanks for the info on Case's use of it.

 

[kvaughn]

It's a good question. I don't know the answer.

W.R. Case & Sons first used Damascus in 1989 according to Steve Pfeiffer, in Collecting Case Knives. (That date coincides with the very brief ownership by Jim Parker).

I forgot that Parker owned Case for a bit. I didn't realize it was at that time that the Case Damascus came out. Was the Case and Parker Damascus from the same manufacturer I wonder?--KV

 

[Rich S]

Here's a pic (sorry not very detailed) of my French damascus folding bowie.


The blade is definitely damascus (mechanical), and well patterned.

Rich

 

[Ramrodmb]

Interesting question, enjoying the discussion.
Here is a Buck from 1990.

 

[GaiusJulius]

"Damascus" in knives is a new-ish thing. I believe it was reintroduced in the 1970s or 1980s. However, it's not quite the same thing as the "Damascus steel" which was famous in the ancient world. Sources seem to disagree on whether this was really a product of Damascus or whether it was a metalworking technique that originated in Damascus and was then copied in Toledo and other metalworking centers of the Old World (Toledo being the old capital of Spain which was in close proximity to the Muslim world, where Damascus was a major city, etc.) Or perhaps it was a steel from India that came to the West via trade routes that terminated in Damascus. We don't know for sure.

Anyway, Damascus steel, whatever it was, was rendered superfluous by the new steelmaking processes developed in Western Europe after the Industrial Revolution, and forgotten. Certainly however, there was the steel which we would call "pattern welded," which looks exactly like modern "Damascus," and which was used until the end of the 19th century (and the adoption of higher pressure smokeless powder) for gun barrels. You particularly see it with beautiful old double barrel shotguns.

Today's Damascus may look like we suppose ancient Damascus steel looked like, but probably isn't the same thing. It does look neat though and in the right knife can be breathtaking. It derives its cutting efficacy from the serrated edge which develops when you have a hard steel mixed with a softer steel, or so I was told by a gentleman who makes the stuff.

 

[knarfeng]

Today's Damascus may look like we suppose ancient Damascus steel looked like, but probably isn't the same thing. It does look neat though and in the right knife can be breathtaking. It derives its cutting efficacy from the serrated edge which develops when you have a hard steel mixed with a softer steel, or so I was told by a gentleman who makes the stuff.

Absolutely not the same thing. And while I've heard the theory about the serrated edge, I've seen no substantiation of it.

Modern "Damascus steel" is composed of layers of different alloys welded together. It's pretty, but not significantly superior to modern alloys.

Original "Damascus Steel" was Wootz steel, made from ore containing trace levels of carbide forming contaminants. The Wootz method produced steel with fewer inclusions than steel made by contemporary European methods of that age, thus making a superior steel. It was the contaminants that gave the steel its characteristic pattern.
https://www.mse.iastate.edu/news/john-verhoeven/

John Verhoeven is a professor of Metallurgy at Iowa State University. He has written a number of books on the metallurgy of blade steel. He has done a significant amount of work investigating Damascus steel. He has compared traditional Damascus to modern alloys and found the modern alloys to be superior.

 

[Horsewright]

Yay good stuff knarfeng ! Wootz steel and pattern welded steels are two different critters, however the term Damascus steel has been used to describe the two interchangeably for many years. It is not a recent development. I have two historical records of Damascus knives being used in early California, one at the battle of San Pasqual. It was tied to a stick to make a lance for use by a Californio against the invading US Dragoons. This was in 1846 and was related by Don José Jesus Lopez, the son of the Californio that used the lance. Don José also gave a Damascus blade to the grizzly bear hunter on El Rancho El Tejon when he was Mayodomo there. This was the mid 1870s. where these blades wootz steel, unlikely. Pattern welded steel, highly likely and at a time when the process was suppose to be forgotten. The important part was that the Don used the word Damascus when relating this to the historian writing this all down in the early 1930s.

 

[Rich S]

I agree totally with the difference between Wootz and pattern welded Damascus steels. However, I suspect (no proof) that welding multiple strips of steel together to form a larger/longer piece just seems to be a most logical way for even the earliest smiths to make larger pieces of steel even with somewhat primitive forges. Just the thought.
Rich

 

[Lapedog]

I did more intermittent googling and skimming through online articles of unknown accuracy. Quite interesting, since I knew almost nothing about Damascus steel before today. Several sources I read claimed that Damascus steel originated in India ca 300 AD, but the technique was lost by about 1750. What we call Damascus steel today is apparently not made using the original process/materials. Knives made by the first of the modern methods were apparently shown in 1973.

If that info is correct, Greg's observation that he couldn't recall "old" examples of Damascus makes sense.

- GT

Careful, I've been massively chewed out by other members for repeating those same sources that claimed the ancient damascus recipie was lost. Apparently there are people who make real damascus today.

Most of what we call "damascus" today is actually pattern welded steel, another technique that has been around. Many viking swords are pattern welded and considered by some to be the height of the craft.

Real Wootz blade.

Pattern welded steel, aka what we call damascus today. (Not historical Damascus, Wootz or Bulat steel, note how the layers are stacked, welded together and twisted )

Advanced "mosaic damascus" (actually pattern welded)

Yes those are TRexes on G.2

 

[neal70]

Pre-Roman “ Coin Knives “? Total guess. But why not, on some rich man’s whim? Also a way to reuse broken pieces, or small leftovers. Shrug, pure theorizing. Interesting question tho’. Did Scagel mix up steels? Bill Moran did , but idk that he made folders.
Thanks, Neal