when is it "good enough"

Belstain

Belstain

Joined
Sep 17, 1999
Messages
320
I've been making knives for about 3 years. After the first year I stopped selling and just made knives for fun. Now I'm thinking about selling them again. Basically I either have to get a part time job or make knifemaking pay for itself. I don't really want another job so I'm gonna try the other way.
My problem is that I'm too damn picky. It seems like every knife I finish has something "wrong" with it. Usually little things that nobody notices but they drive me crazy. How do you know when to stop and call it good? Is using a magnifying glass to make sure all the lines are perfectly parallel on a hand rubbed finish too much for a $60 knife? Last night as I was doing that I thought to myself "This isn't a four figure knife it doesn't need a four figure finish. Or does it?" The knife is nothing fancy just a little neck knife I like to make. 2" 1084 blade, ebony scales, random filework and a leather sheath.

this picture was my first attempt at chain damascus but it's the same pattern http://www.geocities.com/belstain

I'm not sure what to do about it right now. I could just keep doing things the way I am and hope that someday I'll be able to get known for perfection. Or I could not go quite as crazy on the cheaper knives. What would you do? When is it ok to call it "good enough?"
 
Originally posted by Belstain

My problem is that I'm too damn picky. It seems like every knife I finish has something "wrong" with it. Usually little things that nobody notices but they drive me crazy... How do you know when to stop and call it good? What would you do? When is it ok to call it "good enough?"
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I'm not a knife maker (unless you count making one kit knife), but I know this is a decision you're going to have to make for yourself. I heard a long time ago from Ed Fowler, "There is no perfect knife and if you were to make one you'd be the first." It's natural to look at your work and only see the flaws. Better for you to see them and try to improve on every knife than to have someone else find them and write you off as someone that puts out shoddy work. If you really are too damn picky maybe you shouldn't be making cheap neck knives, but put that picky to work and start making high-end customs.

I just came from two days at ECCKS where I got to hang around with some of the top makers in the world, and each and every one of them was humble about their work, never really satisfied and still looking to improve.

Why do you think you should be any different?
 
I guess alot of that is fear of not meeting expectations. I want to give people a good value for there money. Every knife I make is better than the one before. I feel bad sometimes selling something that I know I can do better. Maybe I couldn't when I started but by the time I get it done I've gotten better. That wasn't the point of the post though.
I was trying to ask what do customers expect in a handmade knife? What level of detail and finish is expected of a knife in a given price range?

I fully intend to continue doing the absolute best I can on every knife I make regardless if it a cheap neck knife or a high end custom. I like to make the fanciest knives I am capable of but it is fun to make simple knives too. Sometimes more fun.
 
Ed is right,there are no perfect knives.But some I have seen would take a microscope to find the flaws or simply ask the maker.Most makers can pick out their own easily.Quit beating yourself up, and sell your knives.Most people do not expect beginners to be making knives like Ed Fowler,Fisk, Loveless, etc.I have been making knives for about 9 years and sell most everything I make.But I make knives in the $100-$300 range not $1000.Maybe as my skills improve that will happen but selling is paying for my education and allows me to keep purchasing materials to get better.My customers also know that they are still getting a special one of a kind knife,flawed or not.I like most makers strive to give the customer the best we can, but we are human.I sure you will find customers that will appreciate the effort that you put into it and will buy it.Just my opinion.Dave:)
 
If I wasn't so selfish I would loan you my wife. When I'm working on a project she often comes out and tells me to deliver it already! I keep pointing out things that I want to fix or do over and she reminds me that no one but me would see all the problems that I see.
Another way to look at it is that being a perfectionist will continually to upgrade what you produce.
My thoughts, Lynn
 
Keep doing the best you can on each knife. As you have probably discovered on each knife you make you do a better job in less time than you did on the previous knife. Keep you expectations high, but I will admit it's hard knowing when to quit, because sometimes you reach a point of diminishing returns. But the way I see it, if you enjoy making knives, and then get some money in return (most people do not have past-times that can actually pay for themselves) then you are ahead of the game.

I have been making as long as you and haven't sold many knives. This needs to change for the same reasons you mentioned. My niece was perfectly happy to be given a knife that I considered a reject that no one could find any problems with!
 
With all the knifemakers competing for their share of the market, I find it difficult to think anyone nowadays can get away with "good enough."

The fact that you see flaws in your work shows you are learning. When you get rid of these, you'll just find smaller ones to work on. By the time you get good enough to eliminate most of the rework, you'll probably use the time you've "gained" to try more difficult tasks. Then, the cycle starts over.

In the end, your customers will determine whether or not your level of craftsmanship is worth the asking price - whether you make inexpensive neck knives or fully tricked out works of art. ;)
 
I think Tom hit it - buyers will vote with their dollars. If your prices are too high for your workmanship, you'll end up with unsold inventory; if too cheap you'll never keep up.

Every knifemaker I've talked to about this - every craftsman of any stripe in fact - always sees what should have been better. The imperfections are what makes hand work valuable; but the smaller the imperfections the greater the value. ;)

Like was said, continually demanding better work will only lead to better work. The first time you really believe "that's good enough" you will have quit growing.

Just my 2c.

Dave
 
Being your biggest critic will make your knives as good as they can be and insure that they wont come back after you deliver them.

I have always worked on the prinicple that "If you can make it better then you should"
 
Originally posted by Tom Anderson
By the time you get good enough to eliminate most of the rework, you'll probably use the time you've "gained" to try more difficult tasks. Then, the cycle starts over.
Click to expand...

Nothing is more true than the statement above. After doing stock removal for a few years and then starting to forge it is like starting over. I never thought the differences would be that drastic. I am still learning, kicking and screaming somtimes the whole way! I am not saying that either one is more difficult, they are just so different.

C Wilkins
 
Depending on what you are calling a flaw,If you can see it so can the customer...
But then again as you learn more you will find more,You can't start out perfect or you will have no room to grow and make each piece special.Just finish each knife the best you can then critic it and fix the things you see on the next knife.You will drive yourself crazy if you keep going back to a knife and fixing things on it.As said before there has never been a perfectly flawless knife made so you are in great company.The more practice you have at making a knife is just seed for that perfect piece which you only want to make one time and that should be your last one when you die;) That way nobody will expect you to do it twice:p

Using a magnifying glass is a great way to critic yourself,but if you made the knife without this aid then you will always see little things you missed without the magnification.I grind under magnification along with hand rub the blade out.You would be suprised at how much better your knives will look when viewed with the bare eye when they are finished under heavey magnification (a optivisor,is a inexpensive way to acomplish this)
Bruce
 
Being unhappy has made me a better knifemaker! Ok, let me explain. I like my knives but as soon as I finish one I see things I could have done better in either the knife or the process. So, as soon as I finish a knife I want to toss it aside and do the next better. My wife says this is what makes me a good maker. Just remember a few simple rules. Don't keep all your knives, sell them. Don't sell a knife your not happy with. And be reasonable, with your price and yourself. Just make each one as best you can and the rest will come along.
 
When buying a knife I look at quality for price. On a $60.00 knife I look for a good knife, but am not concerned with small imperfections. I realize that a maker can't spend the time on a knife of this price that he/she can on more expensive knives. My expectations go up as the price of the knife increases.

There is something to be said for being a perfectionist, but you will have to learn to recognize when you have made the knife as well as you can for the price you are charging. The thing that amazes me is that you can make a custom knife for $60.00 at all.
 
I've only been making knives for a little more than a year, so I used that excuse to not sell anything until late last year. I could always find a reason to not sell something with some little flaw or the fact that I could improve the design. When I kept mentioning this to the more experienced makers who were helping and advising me, they finally told me to get off the pot and just start selling.

This year I finally started selling some knives on the web. The customers started telling me that on fit, finish and performance that their expectations were exceeded. I like to think part of that has to do with the hard work and fussiness & maybe some of it is due the extra 2 hours I seem to put into every knife when I find its going out the door..... anyway, I figure thats a good start and now that I have a toe in the door, it seem that the need to improve/enhance/evolve/push the envelope/experiment with every knife is even stronger - its like there is now a greater responsibility with real customers ...but to perfection? ...of course not! doesn't exist.

I've been in business (in othet things) for myself for years. I've always felt that my first customer (myself) was the one who I learned the most from about being critical. That's the one who set the standards. I've always been criticized for being too fussy. I don't care, though. I am comfortable with my philosphy and my work. Bottom line, I really believe that if you can feel pride in your work and be honest in your own appraisal of that work, then your customers will be happy, too.


Bob
 
The pursuit of perfection seems to be an edge that cuts two ways. It pushes my craft further along as I reach for the next level, and it also paralyzes me from taking the next step as I fear mistakes. I don't want to let perfection go too easily because it's what makes my work more meaningful, and at the same time it makes my work more challenging (difficult?).

Sometimes I like to work on tooling or other projects in my shop because perfection counts less when it resides in a box or on a shelf in my shop. Then I have to get back to the knives.

I'll let you know if I ever find an answer to this dilemma. :confused:
 
Belstain has a problem that we all probably had starting out making---HOW MUCH TO CHARGE. I got lucky on this end. Before I really knew what to charge for a good knife a guy stopped by and offered me a good price for the knife, so I tried to base my prices mostly on the amount of work I would have to do on the future knives. I didn't have any idea what to charge the guy for my first, especially since I actually just had a few bucks in the material but a lot of time and detail in the work.
 
Phil always remembers, thanks Phil;
There are many frontiers on any single knife. Blade geometry, strength, cut, What For?
Another is fit to the hand and task.
Cosmetics, scratches, grind are important to some and the only frontier many will recognise.

I pick the areas where no compromise is allowed, where an absolute pass - fail rules. I believe every knife maker makes this decision in one venue or another. It may be because the blade broke and looks kind of odd without a tip or due to a microscipic flaw in the pearl handle buried next to the tang.

I believe that the decisions we make concerning what is important map the frontier we will explore. A highly significant result of our decision are the type of friends and clients who chose our knives and thoughts. It becoms a blend maker, goals, clients, friends. I would not trade goals with others, I very much like the frontier that attracted me.

It all boils down to What For, Who For, governed by Why, when these venues agree, we enjoy the dream.
 
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