When Is Schrade + not Stailess Steel?

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winchester73

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Jan 6, 2008
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Since when is Schrade + not stainless steel. Answer it isn't.(Or only when you talk to someone behind a counter who doesn't 't know knives or product or doesn't care.) I was at SMKW the other day and thought about getting one of the rehandled USA 160OT's USA bladed knives they had in the catalogue for a user rather than my boxed 160OT. I thought I would go by the store since I don't live far from there instead of ordering online. I looked at the knife and and it said 160 OT Schrade +. I asked the younger guy who waited on me to see if he had any that were carbon steel. He and an older guy behind the counter said they all had + on the tang and they are carbon steel. I tried to explain they are stainless if they have the +on the tang. He said we have to go by what's in the catalogue and it says carbon steel, then he turned his back on me? Such great customer service. What do you expect though when you work all day at a counter that only has Taylor Chinese Schrades. That's OK tho' as I really haven't wanted to buy anything from them since the owner of SMKW fired Steve Koontz former VP and former host of Kniveslive TV. Steve made the show interesting with his dry humor, knowledge and answering knife questions emailed to him.

As I said I have a new old stock 160 OT in the box and have often wonder why we as collectors buy them and let them sit in a box rather than use them. I'm as guilty as anyone else. We want to keep the in "mint "condition.

Happy Memorial Day everyone.
 
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All steel, including all stainless knife steel, is high-carbon steel. The addition of carbon to iron is the principal (but not the only) difference between iron and steel. Some non-cutlery steels no doubt have lower amounts of carbon. I believe that original pre-bankruptcy Schrade literature sometimes stated that their stainless steel was high-carbon, but don't quote me on that one.
 
True and I believe towards the end Schrade made the Old Timers in stainless but for most of their history Schrade + denoted stainless steel blades of 440A or 420Hc they used in their Uncle Henry line and the Old Timers fixed and pocket knives were 1095 carbon. I have read on this forum a quote from a Schrade employee that toward the last they were using SS on Old Timers because the average buyer didn't like the patina and the possible rust if not cared for. However for most of the run the Old Timer series did use 1095.
No offense to anyone; after all the forum is supposed to be fun for Schrade lovers but Codger may be you'd like to come in on this one.
 
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I worked at Schrade for about 2 years until they closed down in 2004. I believe most of the lower price point knives were made with 420 High Carbon SS. 420 is available in different carbon contents. Low carbon would be used for things like liners. All of the 420 steel will rust with enough exposure to salt spray. Of course it doesn't hold an edge as well as 1095, but it's not much worse either.
My $0.02
 
Also when I'm talking about the + stamping, I , meant it denotes that SS was used on the blades. 1095 for Old Timers and Open Stock and the + stamping was 440A and 420HC for blades on Uncle Henry's. There were exceptions of course like the first Golden Spikes using 1095 blades at first then going to SS.
 
Recently I have purchased some 2000's era old timers NIB and they all say High carbon steel. With a + tang stamp. They are stainless of course but nowhere on the package does it say stainless steel. My conclusion is they didnt want to scare off potential buyers by saying stainless steel. Cause it wouldnt be an old timer like grandpa's. I dont know just a thought.
 
Well I have enough Uncle Henry's and wanted to go back to carbon steel so I didn't buy the user at SMKW. SMKW has been putting out these Paaka wood handled Schrade fixed blades for about 2 years and from what I have seen the are getting low as the stamps say anything or some no stamp at all. These knifes are selling on ebay and even even one of the AAPK stores for $20.00 more to twice what was paid for them at SMKW. The guy selling at ebay even includes a certificate if "authenticity". Plus as I said not buying anything from them unless I can't find it anywhere else because of the firing of Steve Koontz. After Steve being with Kevin Pipes for over twenty years he should be ashamed for firing him but as in THE jAMES bOND movie License to Kill where the villain said: It's nothing personal just business. Brother it's always personal when your trying to put food on the table and have kids.
 
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"The addition of carbon to iron is the principal (but not the only) difference between iron and steel." just to clarify pure iron would not have carbon in it but any metallurgical iron be it steel or iron has carbon. what we commonly call iron has in fact much greater carbon content than steel. what is the main difference is how the carbon is situated in the atoms that makes the difference. in steel it is held interstitually which is where the steel gets its hardness in the changes to the molecular pattern. in iron the carbon is found both in the iron matrix and also is there in carbon form.
 
Thanks for the input Davis. Yes, the presence of the "+" mark denotes stainless of one flavor or another. The absence historicly meant that it was non-stainless, what we refer to as carbon steel, generally, but not always, 1095hc. In the latter days, for various reasons, non-stainless knives were made with stainless though not marked as such. I have at least one 152OT that fits that description and some OT folders as well. Returns from WalMart and Sears for tarnished blades were killing profits... they had to accept them back by their agreement with those big customers. At least this is what I was told by some former employees.
 
So I guess the guys behind the counter at SMKW don't know their craft. I tried to tell them + meant SS but they wouldn't hear. It was carbon(1095)_ to them. After all "we have to go by what's in the catalogue".
 
Codger_64,
What you're saying sounds right. I think they did switch to stainless becase the general pubilc would complain about thier blades rusting, and very well could have resulted in a lot of returned knives. IMHO, the largest nail in Schrade's coffin was they let Walmart become too large a percentage of thier total business. I remember the company bending over backwards to get enough product out the door to fill a Walmart order, only to have Walmart later return a good portion of them. They really seemed to let Walmart run the show.
 
Darcknight said:
Schrade+ was 440A steel as simple as that.
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Sometimes it was. And sometimes it was 420. IIRC, the "+" actually signified their heat/cryo treatment of their stainless steels.

Yes, I was told that Wal-Mart became the "tail that wagged the dog" and in fact Schrade nearly had a massive order ready to ship (which may/may not have staved off the bankruptcy) when the receivers ordered them to stop shipping and prepare for disolution. There was no appeal and that shipment wound up in the October auction along with everything else in house, both finished and in process.
 
Actually what had happened was that Schrade at one point notified Walmart in writing that there had been a 2% increase in the price of wholesale steel and that Schrade had to pass that increase along at no extra profit just to maintain being even. Walmart returned to Schrade to "read the fine print in the contract" It stated that Walmart may break contract with vendor at any time and at such time vendor would have to buy back said merchandise. Walmart broke the contract and Shrade was forced to buy back all stock nationwide and worldwide which broke their financial backs. THAT is why Shrade actually went out of business! Your are right about the steel by the way. In the good days it was 440A and in bad they went to crap 420.
 
Case uses 420HC but people seem to buy them with pretty and different scales as collectibles. Not that I have anything against Case, I have some but Case doesn't have Paul Bos doing their heat treat like Buck does or did. They still use his process and consult with him from what I understand. Schrade using 420Hc could have been good with the right heat treat. If you read some posts from traditional and general knife discussion on this form, 440A is frowned upon by 95%. I don't necessarily agree with that but lately have gotten some Canal Streets with 440C and other higher end stainless steel knives from Canal Street as my wallet allowed. Right now I'm mostly carrying my new (to me) Schrade open stock carbon steel knives. I talked to Wally Gardiner briefly on the phone about a month ago about a particular knife and for legal reasons he wouldn't go into any detail about this but I had read where he had the rights to us the Walden name but didn't use it because Taylor threatened to sue him. It would really have been nice if he had been able to use the Walden stamp. then it would really seem like Schrade was still in business.
 
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Darcknight said:
Actually what had happened was that Schrade at one point notified Walmart in writing that there had been a 2% increase in the price of wholesale steel and that Schrade had to pass that increase along at no extra profit just to maintain being even. Walmart returned to Schrade to "read the fine print in the contract" It stated that Walmart may break contract with vendor at any time and at such time vendor would have to buy back said merchandise. Walmart broke the contract and Shrade was forced to buy back all stock nationwide and worldwide which broke their financial backs. THAT is why Shrade actually went out of business! Your are right about the steel by the way. In the good days it was 440A and in bad they went to crap 420.
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Funny. I bought Schrade knives from Walmart both before and after the closing. They apparently did not send them back.
 
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