When one can't continue?

TedV · Apr 14, 2006

Me and my friend are going for a week of camping & hiking in the Scottish Higlands next week. Nothing special, we've done it numerous times before. All walks will be moderate, no climbing, maybe some light scrambling.
One hike we planned is to a lake (Loch Coruisk) in a remote area (no cell phone coverage), which is enclosed between mountains and about 10 miles from any form of civilization. We plan to walk there, camp, and walk back the next day via another route.
We'll bring a tent, and all the necessary supplies (food, water, basic medical kit etc.) and we'll leave a notice at our car & campsite from where we start (Elgol).
Now, what would be the best thing to do when one of us for example hurts his feet or ankle (or get's sick?), and can't walk/continue anymore?
If he's ok for the rest, would it be to pitch up the tent, make things comfortable for him, and then walk out to get help?
Or, will it be to wait for other people to stay with him? (or ask them to get help)
I guess that all depens on the situation, but am wondering if there are some general guidelines?
Thanks,
Ted

Nice photo of the scenery found here:

http://www.phototravels.net/scotland/pcd1992/skye-loch-coruisk-8.html

Nordic Viking · Apr 14, 2006

A little OT Ted, but how's the weather there right now. IIRC, Maximus Otter lives around that area and in the photos he took last week, it was still snowing quite a bit.

TedV · Apr 14, 2006

Well, the wheather is ... uh ... scottish?

Meaning, it might be snowing now and it can be sunny next week.

I was near Inverness in february this year, and sat on top of a hill in my t-shirt and got a nice tan...

So to be honest, I have no clue, but am prepared for the worst. It won't be the first time camping when it's freezing.

dartanyon · Apr 14, 2006

Leaving an injured team member to get help?

First thing you ask yourself is, if I stay with my injured partner will we be found?

A lot depends on the weather, location, type of injury, preparedness, will you survive a night and is someone going to come looking for you?

If in doubt I would try and take the injured person with me.

If there was no other choice and it was a life and death decision then as a last resort I would set up my partner the best I could, formulate a retrieval plan with them and set off for help.

TedV · Apr 14, 2006

dartanyon said:
Leaving an injured team member to get help?

dartanyon, of course that would be a very last resort. I'm just trying to get as much opinions on the matter as possible. Me and my friend have been doing these yearly hikes / small vacations without wife & kids for 20 years now, and one day it will happen that one slips from a rock, breaks his anke and slams his head against a rock...

Nordic Viking · Apr 14, 2006

I would say stay put and wait it out; if not too serious an injury or illness. We got sick on a trip in Norway and by the time we got back to civilaztion we were almost healthy again.

Plus Ted, there should be a rule against posting details of trips without providing pics

Moine · Apr 14, 2006

It seems like a simple question, but in fact it is quite complex...

A few parameters that are to be considered are :

1) risks...

- If I leave the guy there alone, what are the risks ? For the vitcim ? for myself ? For the rest of the party ?
- If I bring him along, what are the risks ? For him ? For myself ? For the rest of the party ?

2) methods...

- what's the quickest AND safest way to trigger the rescue op ? Can one person stay with him and one person safely fetch help ?

- can the person be quickly and safely helped out and extracted by the party itself ? What will be faster ? Fetching help ? Auto-extracting ? Just waiting on the stop ? Calling (cell phone or whatever) ?

Many questions, not many answers... as it always depends on the situation.

Cheers,

David

DGG · Apr 14, 2006

If possible to get a link I would take a cell phone. Since you will never be far from civilization, only a couple hours walk, I would have no problem leaving the gimpy guy in his tent with a nice little fire and supply of wood to last him and some chow and water. If he is injured badly, broken leg, gashed head, then I'd leave one of your party with him to tend to the first aid and the rest hike out for help. Are there boats on that lake that you could flag down for assistance?

Looks like a great adventure, wish I was doing it.

skammer · Apr 14, 2006

As Moine mentioned its a VERY complicated issue. The outcome of ones rescue starts before you jump in the car to go.

Did you give detailed trip information to more than one responsible adult?

Will you be missed in a reasonable amount of time?

The above ensures someone will come looking for you in short order rather than days like Aron Ralston.

Decisions to move an injured patient are very complicated as well.

How many are in your party? What training do they have? 3 are better than 2, 4 are better than 3. Ideally with 4 one stays with the injured party and 2 go for help. With only 2 people will the patient die if left alone?

the possibilities are endless and must be weighed as each situation is different.

The key to any expedient rescue is you leaving accurate information behind before you go. Supportive training like first aid, survival and navigation all help tip the odds in your favor. Being preparred for nasty situations with some gear is always a good thing to.

Lady luck is always a major factor as well.

Skam

TedV · Apr 14, 2006

skammer said:
As Moine mentioned its a VERY complicated issue. The outcome of ones rescue starts before you jump in the car to go.

Did you give detailed trip information to more than one responsible adult?

Yes we will, we'll call home to tell we'll start the trip, and when they should expect a call when we've returned. They will know what to do when we don't call. We'll also try to inform a local there.

Will you be missed in a reasonable amount of time?

Yes

The above ensures someone will come looking for you in short order rather than days like Aron Ralston.

Yeah

Am not planning to take his path ...

Decisions to move an injured patient are very complicated as well.

How many are in your party? What training do they have? 3 are better than 2, 4 are better than 3. Ideally with 4 one stays with the injured party and 2 go for help. With only 2 people will the patient die if left alone?

We're just the two of us (36yrs, pretty fit). We're both experienced hikers, with training and experience in bushcraft (fire/shelter). I think we have all the basics covered in gear (tent/food/stove/water/medical). We'll have maps, compasses, GPS for backup, and we know how to use all of it.

the possibilities are endless and must be weighed as each situation is different.

Yes indeed. I was not expecting to get the ultimate answer here. I figured it would make interesting discussion, and learn some new insights on the matter.

The key to any expedient rescue is you leaving accurate information behind before you go. Supportive training like first aid, survival and navigation all help tip the odds in your favor. Being preparred for nasty situations with some gear is always a good thing to.
Lady luck is always a major factor as well.
Skam

Yes indeed! Then again, when we walk up there, we'll probably get passed by the local elderly club, or tourist on high-heels...

mete · Apr 14, 2006

Communication could be done if you were an amateur radio operator.More to pack in but there is some good small light equipment available.

skammer · Apr 14, 2006

Those are some serious contour lines Ted. Reminds me of the rocky mountains. Camping at altitude has its own risks. Wish I were going with you looks like gods country.

Skam

TedV · Apr 14, 2006

skammer said:
Those are some serious contour lines Ted. Reminds me of the rocky mountains. Camping at altitude has its own risks. Wish I were going with you looks like gods country.

Skam

Thanks - about altitude - the big loch is at sea level. The water at the bottom is the sea!

David Schott · Apr 14, 2006

I used to do lots of solo backpacking. Basically, if I got hurt, I was walking the pain out come hell or high water. The only reason I can see to stay put would be due to serious injury which completely removes the chance of walking out, or if the weather is bad enough that each night you will require good cover or be in trouble. 10 miles may seem like a long way and seem even longer when hurt, but its not that far. I once fell and broke a toe and wracked my knee in the middle of nowhere. I walked the 21 miles back to the highway before night hit as i knew the next day would be far worse if i slept. It was one of, if not the longest day of hiking in my life, but even injured most people can manage 1 mile per hour walking....

You are preparing for a real disaster, which is good, but those type situations are not common enough that one can speculate. Focus on communication means, alternate routes out, extra food, and water sources. Expect the unexpected and keep a level head and it will save more than anything else.

tripletrash · Apr 14, 2006

In boyscouts they tought us to carry an injured scout. You neet two people to carry one but it works if your in a group. stand facin an uninjured companion with your arms bent 90*facing out fold your left arm in and grab just below the elbow now have your frienfd do the same. come together and you each grab the others left arm right below the elbow. you should have a square made out of your arms you can put the injured person on to transport.

Temper · Apr 14, 2006

Beg steal or borrow a GPS. If one of you gets hurt, take a reading and give it to SAR while you get your order in at the bar

Thomas Linton · Apr 14, 2006

tripletrash said:
In boyscouts they tought us to carry an injured scout. You neet two people to carry one but it works if your in a group. stand facin an uninjured companion with your arms bent 90*facing out fold your left arm in and grab just below the elbow now have your frienfd do the same. come together and you each grab the others left arm right below the elbow. you should have a square made out of your arms you can put the injured person on to transport.

As anyone who has actually done it can tell you, carrying someone "out" in rugged terrain is -- rugged -- even with four healthy adults carrying a litter . It is not surprising when it leads to other injuries.

Complex issue, as stated above.

buckg · Apr 15, 2006

As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's difficult for one person to take another person out in anything but the easiest of conditions. A bad fall could very likely be the result. I think the only good choices are leaving them or staying with them. If the person's condition was stable, I'd wait. If not, I think you'd have to make the difficult choice and leave them.

oldsalt · Apr 15, 2006

Ted,
Don't know that I can add much to the excellent answers already given. My first thought is that you need to determine if the injured person is capable of surviving for an extended period of time on their own or if they require constant monitoring and care. Secondly you will need to determine the level of care you are capable of rendering. If they are severly injured with injuries beyond your level of training or ability to help them then going for immediate help takes on a higher priority.
Sounds like a great trip, have fun!
OldSalt

Burncycle · Apr 15, 2006

As always, tell someone where you're going, when you plan to be back, emergency information, supply status (how many days of food, water, etc) and if you decide to wander off the plan, don't do it so much that the information you gave the people are invalid.

Going so far from help, you really need to consider things like PLB's, amateur radios, and so forth. Maybe you won't have to walk all the way to civilization... just to the nearest peak that is reasonably safe to get to and use the radio. Or, if the injury is life threatening, pop the PLB.

Kifaru makes a pack that is suitable for carrying people in an emergency. Lets you take your buddy out even if he's not conscious, and doesn't require two people to operate like a stretcher.
http://www.kifaru.net/MGcargoC.htm
http://www.kifaru.net/MG_MOLLE4.htm