When to distal taper...

ERIK KNIVES

ERIK KNIVES

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Aug 17, 2010
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For stock removal guys, if you are going to, at what point in your workflow do you create your distal taper?

I recently set a distal taper on two knives prior to grinding the bevels, and it is a PITA. I would love to grind the bevels and then taper distally, but that seems like it may create more problems than it solves in regard to the grind lines.

Opinions?

Thanks, Erik
 
If you do full height grinds, if your edge rises up toward the spine of the blade, or if the spine drops toward the edge (or both of course) then you don't have to do anything beyond maintain a constant angle as you grind your bevels to create the distal taper - it happens automatically. It's not a separate process for these types of blades - it's just working the geometry.

However for a blade with parallel edge and spine or with edge dropping away from the spine as you go toward the tip, then you have to finesse things by gradually changing your bevel grind angle along the way -- but again, not really a separate process - just working the geometry. Again though - this is working with full height grinds.
 
I do like zerogee, whenever I do a drop point, clip, spear, or anything that moves the tip down I never profile the drop until after I do a FFG. that way it just happens. I dont like scandis anyway
 
You both make good points. Nebulae, I never thought of profiling the drop after the FFG, very interesting. It seems that there needs to be a fair amount of adjustment to the grind or the gradual taper will only exist where the point drops, and then sudden taper where the edge turns up to the tip. I'd estimate that a drop point and the shape of the tip would only provide taper for about 1/3 of the blade on many knives.

What about a blade that is not a full flat grind?
 
you are correct viewing spine on you can usually see where the taper starts, especially if there is a rather sharp angle where the drop meets the spine but if you grind a little after you profile the drop you can fudge it so that it blends in enough to not be too noticeable. Again your right the taper is not a full (ricasso to tip), but more like a 1/2 to 1/4 depending on where you start the drop, so its not a true distal taper, but I find that is usually enough to provide a nice pointy tip. And if I am not putting a FFG on it chances are the stock is really thin so I dont worry about much taper, (FFG is my favorite!). It won't always yield a classic distal taper, and doesn't work for everything, but in some scenarios it is absolutely effortless.
 
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Over the weekend, I ground some similar knives different ways, I.E - no distal taper pre-bevel then partial height flat grind, distal taper pre-bevel then partial height flat grind, distal taper pre-bevel then full flat grind. I've also been looking closely at my previous knives with full flat grinds and partial flat grinds.

I also held a blank for quite a while today to visualize what would happen if I ground the bevels (partial flat grind) and then tried to set a full distal taper.

Here are my conclusions thus far. Take them or leave them or call BS. I've only completed about 10 knives and have about that many on the bench, so I'm not trying to teach here, I'm just sharing my experience. If you disagree or know better, I would appreciate your comment.

This is from a stock removal perspective.

1) A full flat grind is the easiest way to provide some distal taper, but it will not provide full distal taper if you rely solely on the up sweep of the edge and any drop in the point.
2) A lack of distal taper, although oftentimes desirable, is much more prominent in thicker stock.
3) Trying to provide additional or full distal taper after grinding the bevels on anything other than a full flat grind is not a good idea.
4) On many knives, a lack of full distal taper is not necessary, nor will it be missed.
5) If you are tapering your tangs, a full distal taper becomes more important.
6) Adding distal taper is an additional step, and it may make your pretty bevels harder to achieve.
7) The advantage of a full distal taper is mostly aesthetic, but reduces weight and may add to balance.

Distal taper is not something I expected to be focusing on a week or two ago. Better design, handle shapes, tapered tangs and Corby bolts were among my thoughts. Someone said to me, "light is right, thin is in." Was that James or Salem? I think it was James, but it's late, so I'm not looking that up just now.
 
well said couldn't agree more with all of those points. Thats why if I do a taper its the half assed version
 
The design of the knife and the chosen thickness of the material determine how much distal taper is appropriate, IMO. A knife with flats that extend halfway down the blade is not a full flat grind. A true full flat grind terminates the flat at or near the plunge cut and allows for a proper full length taper, unless the spine rises after this point.
 
Justin King said:
The design of the knife and the chosen thickness of the material determine how much distal taper is appropriate, IMO. A knife with flats that extend halfway down the blade is not a full flat grind. A true full flat grind terminates the flat at or near the plunge cut and allows for a proper full length taper, unless the spine rises after this point.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb if I say that it is common for some of us to rely on the shape of the profile of the blade and the height of the grind to provide the distal taper, as opposed to treating the distal taper as a step in the workflow, like a tapered tang would be treated. I don't forge, but I bet a lot of forgers do this naturally before the blade ever hits the grinder.

I never even considered distal taper until a while back. I made a chef knife that came out quite nice. Jameson2 remarked quite gently and appropriately that it had no distal taper (I'm sure he was talking about full distal taper). It is a full flat grind, drop point and a gradual up-sweep on the edge, so why did he see the lack of taper? He was right, I compared it to commercial chef knives I have with the same spine thickness and blade length and there is a difference between them. Here's the one I made.

IMG_8096.jpg

IMG_8101.jpg


I see a difference between the full flat grinds I have completed without any consideration for distal taper, and the recent full flat grinds that I tapered the blade before grinding the bevel. The latter are lighter and the distal taper is full.

I was really trying to get at how to address a full distal taper in a partial height flat grind, as opposed to a full flat grind. In the process, it seems I have answered my own question.
Full flat grind - don't worry about it or taper before grinding the bevels or taper as part of grinding the bevels.
Partial height flat grind - taper before grinding the bevels.
If you are using 1/16" stock, don't worry about it unless it is a small knife.

-or- don't worry about it at all. Your choice.
 
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