Where are the trainers?

fulloflead

fulloflead

Joined
May 3, 2002
Messages
6,192
I'm looking for a pair of trainer knives. I did a search in knives on Ebay for "trainer" and came up with nothing. "training" brought a few things. I checked a few online dealers and they didn't have a "trainer" catagory.

WTF?:confused:

It's not worth it to me to spend more than about $10-$15 a piece for them - double that for a folder. I just thought I'd have more options.
 
Why do you think that they should only cost $10-15?

It's the same knife. The materials are the same. The manufacturing process is the same. The only difference is in profiling and sharpening. But, the trainer has to be profiled. It's a somewhat different profile, but a profile. You don't elliminate that process step. You do elliminate sharpening. But that's a really minor thing. In a factory with power equipment and jigs, sharpening takes only a few minutes.

The conclusion is that trainers should cost about the same as the knife they double for.

You can get all of the Benchmade trainers from www.1sks.com.

They're much more of a specialty item. Many dealers don't carry them. Sales volumes on them are considerably less than live blades, so most dealers aren't as aggresive on the pricing of trainers.
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
Why do you think that they should only cost $10-15?

It's the same knife. The materials are the same. The manufacturing process is the same.
Click to expand...

No. No. You misunderstand me.;)
I said it's only worth that to ME and that's all I was WILLING to spend. I didn't say anything about what they SHOULD cost.

I'm sure you're completely right about the trainers that manufacturers put out based on their models. I'm sure they're worth it to people willing to spend the $$$ for something good.

But I'D be perfectally happy with a POS rubber knife. I was just hoping to see a bigger selection of POS rubber knives.
 
You might want to think about making one yourself, out of a bar of aluminum, or stick of wood, or whatever you've got lying around the house. Cheap, plus you can make a trainer for any knife you want. Just make sure it really is *very* dull and not pointy before you train with your buddies. :)
 
Check out Hock's web page he was selling a couple of generic trainers that would likely fit your bill.

www.hockscqc.com

Or something similar. I can't remember it right off but it shouldn't be too hard to find him. Hock Hockhiem
 
Yeah thanks, that plastic one looked like it might fit the bill. I'll wait and see what else shows up on this thread.
 
... is from Cold Steel. Go to www.ltspecpro.com and look under training. They are new and I, and others, have had a chance to assess them. For the money, you can't beat them. I have compared them to the Boker Applegate / Fairbarn trainers and for the money, it beats them out. The only con I found with them is that they are light. Other than that, they are most excellent. You can choose from three models and cannot beat them for realism. They are stiff enough for disarms and forgiving enough for mock fighting. Use some chalk, lipstick, and pastel on the edge - throw on some groin protectors and goggles and away you go. I think you would be happy with them since they beat anything I have seen on the market so far in just about every category. Only aluminum beats them out for material realism but for the price you can't go wrong. Good luck with your search.

Originally posted by fulloflead
No. No. You misunderstand me.;)
I said it's only worth that to ME and that's all I was WILLING to spend. I didn't say anything about what they SHOULD cost.

I'm sure you're completely right about the trainers that manufacturers put out based on their models. I'm sure they're worth it to people willing to spend the $$$ for something good.

But I'D be perfectally happy with a POS rubber knife. I was just hoping to see a bigger selection of POS rubber knives.
Click to expand...
 
Do a websearch for a company called I and I Sports.

But, be aware that their cheapie trainers are junk.

Rubber trainers are horrible. They don't double a live blade at all and they're easily broken.

Wood trainers are horrible. They get splinters when they knock together and then you get slinters in your hands and arms.

Aluminum trainers are horrible. They get nicks in them when they bang together and pretty soon what you have is essentially a serrated edge.

Benchmade, Spyderco, Emerson, Timberline, and maybe MOD and/or Microtech make the good stuff. If you're serious about training, don't waste your money on the cheapies.

It's one of those things where, as the old commercial used to say, "You can pay me now... or you can pay me later."
 
... everything is based on context of the application. This is barring intentional or accidental dislocations, sprains, eyes and groin shots, and bruises. To put a postive slant on this...

Rubber trainers are good for hard sparring since they do almost no bodily damage if the body contact is incidental.

Wood trainers are good for choreographed drills and disarms. To some degree they are good for free flow drils. Because they are stiff, they are good for practicing self defense especially. They are good for progressive step drills.

Aluminum trainers are great for drills and disarms, also. The added realism in the feel of metal against skin is the advantage of using such a trainer versus other materials. The feel of it mimics what metal from a real knife would be like pressed against the skin.

As for all the production companies that make trainers, they are good for practicing realism in deploying and switching grip positions of a knife. They, also, have the balance to a real knife since it mimics the configuration, lines, materials, mechanism, and weight the closest. They are just as susceptible to damage if used hard and can hurt the individuals using it if they happen to break apart. Even safety edges of trainers can become hazardously sharp or gouged if it is metal on metal contact with something else, like another trainer as an example. Hitting or dropping them on concrete or any other surface that could damage them.

Short of full out sparring, I think all trainers have their merit. Even I have a bias as to what I would use. Shop and compare. To take Chuck's response a little further, I would add that you get what you pay for. You pay a lot to get a lot - you pay a little to get little. You can either go for options / bells and whistles or you can go for something really basic. It's all up to you.

Originally posted by Gollnick
Do a websearch for a company called I and I Sports.

But, be aware that their cheapie trainers are junk.

Rubber trainers are horrible. They don't double a live blade at all and they're easily broken.

Wood trainers are horrible. They get splinters when they knock together and then you get slinters in your hands and arms.

Aluminum trainers are horrible. They get nicks in them when they bang together and pretty soon what you have is essentially a serrated edge.

Benchmade, Spyderco, Emerson, Timberline, and maybe MOD and/or Microtech make the good stuff. If you're serious about training, don't waste your money on the cheapies.

It's one of those things where, as the old commercial used to say, "You can pay me now... or you can pay me later."
Click to expand...
 
... is particularly a good bargain. I have two of their aluminum bowies and they are crafted very nicely. They are particularly special because it is a family run business and the nicest people you will ever meet. The family all practice Hapkido and Penchak Silat so they have an idea of what to design the knives for in terms of their use for training. I highly recommend them.

Originally posted by rawhide_clyde
In addition to the ones already mentioned I can recommend the following as sources for training blades. Bogner Drill Blades, Warrior Craft, Edges2, and Keen Edge Knife Works.
Stay Safe,
Clyde
Click to expand...
 
... the Boker Applegate / Fairbarn training knives. I have a pair and they are excellent. Heavy handled to mimic the real knives. The Cold Steel Peacemaker trainers are just as good. Not as heavy but they are cheaper in price.

Oh, and whoever your avatar is, I used to know two guys that looked like him. Strangely familiar for some reason...

Originally posted by Boink
Shomer-Tec sells a rubber training knife by the pair.
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I make the training knives for the classes I hold out of plywood, cut to shape based on real knives like the police model, militaty model, and sometimes the enduras.

They are 3/8" thick, profiled and sanded/rounded where necessary so they have no point or edges. These work the best in class as they do not bend like the rubber trainers and can be used to effect the "cats claw" trapping techniques and disarms. They also mimick the exact knife some carry so their "reach" can be developed based on a real world instrument they likely carry.

Aluminum hurts like hell when you are whacked on the wrists or forearms and can actually cause trauma so I won't use those. I have a few aluminum bowies I play with in flow drills and such but they can't really be used in classes as they will put a world of hurt on you.

BTW--The wooden trainers will leave bruises on the wrists and forearms within a short time during training and I suggest all students wear a leather gauntlet or wrap their wrist in an ace bandage to buffer the blows to those areas.

Brownie
 
Wow! Thanks EVERYBODY! I'm getting quite the education on this thread and I'm seriously considering just getting some good ones to begin with.:)

I'm glad I asked!
 
... I have various trainers within context and scenario for their use. The aluminum and steel dulled trainers would work equally as well with forearm guards or gauntlets. I can't see them being any worse than wooden trainers. They end up having more realism looks wise and feel wise if touched against the skin. Nothing more realistic than a metal knife. As well, for serious controlled sparrers, the metal hitting each other and hitting flesh is still a sobering reminder of what it somewhat feels like to be hit by a metal blade, dulled or otherwise. Rubber is the best for full on sparring as it is the most forgiving. Not very realistic in weight or material. Wood is somewhere in between. If a wood trainer splinters or chips, it can becoem equally as dangerous as a metal trainer, if not more so. It is a good policy to wear as much protection as possible for incidental or accidental hits regardless of the material of the blade. It all depends on the budget, authenticity, safety, heritage, weight, etc... issues of the trainer you are looking to purchase. There isn't really any good or bad... just different. It all depends what you want to use it for. If it was up to me, I would like to see somebody make a hybrid trainer. Something like a thinner metal knife with full tang sandwiched between the modern rubber material some trainers are made of. Think of an Oreo cookie with the white cream material being metal going right to the edge of the wafer. You get the blunt safety and softer impact material with the weight and feel of metal against the skin. No Lie Training Blades come close but not quite to the concept I would be thinking of. As well, they are hella' expensive. www.nolieblades.com The concept is sound, though, and they look like they would work quite well.

Originally posted by brownie0486
I make the training knives for the classes I hold out of plywood, cut to shape based on real knives like the police model, militaty model, and sometimes the enduras.

They are 3/8" thick, profiled and sanded/rounded where necessary so they have no point or edges. These work the best in class as they do not bend like the rubber trainers and can be used to effect the "cats claw" trapping techniques and disarms. They also mimick the exact knife some carry so their "reach" can be developed based on a real world instrument they likely carry.

Aluminum hurts like hell when you are whacked on the wrists or forearms and can actually cause trauma so I won't use those. I have a few aluminum bowies I play with in flow drills and such but they can't really be used in classes as they will put a world of hurt on you.

BTW--The wooden trainers will leave bruises on the wrists and forearms within a short time during training and I suggest all students wear a leather gauntlet or wrap their wrist in an ace bandage to buffer the blows to those areas.

Brownie
Click to expand...
 
Another approach is to glue up several layers of heavy cardboard and cut a knife out of that. They don't last long but they're safer than most trainers. You still have to wear safety glasses.
 
I don't allow aluminum trainers in class as they have injured some with gauntlets on as people get more aggressive. It only takes one mistake and the metal trainers can inflict nerve damage, broken bones, etc.

Gauntlets are always on me when training but somehow I get whacked above and below them continuously. As to realistic, I don't need to feel the steel on me to know I got cut good. As well, if you do take a cut it won't feel like the dulled trainers and in fact you probably won't feel anything.

When training with the Bowies we either go less than 1/2 speed or use plastic bowie trainers. Less than half speed is okay until they are ramped up to go faster, then when we get to moving them pretty good, the weight will injure you if you don't convert over to wooden or plastic on the long knives.

I've held numerous classes using the wooden trainers as described in a previous thread and thats about all people really want to deal with after an hour or so in class taking hits to the forearms, wrists, chest, neck areas.

The wooden trainers will put a hurt on you after a day of training, gauntlets or no. Gauntlets keep the bruises to a minimum but the backs of my hands, the lower wrists, above the gauntlet on the forearms take a good beating all day.

Use a metal trainer like that and students will certainly suffer injuries and be discouraged prematurely. Metal trainers have never worked out as well as the wooden trainers as when you are are hitting flesh you are actually bruising bones. Catch an aluminum trainer to the wrist bones even slightly or a knuckle and watch how fast people drop off the class with injuries and quit training.


Anyone who has trained some will no doubt know the aluminum trainers are for SLOW movement and basically used to gain the mechanics of the technique. Anything above that speed and injuries ocurr even with protective gear. If you leave one spot unprotected, the other guys trainer will find it. Result: you go home injured, bruised and battered. I have a hard time concentrating on the techniques and timing while training when I'm in pain from being whacked or in fear of injuries from the other guys trainer through prior experiences.

My wooden trainers split often enough, I just hand them another one thats not so and we are back to business.

Brownie
 
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