Where is the balance point, between beauty, ascetics and a useful tool?

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

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May 2, 2004
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I am amazed at what I see being made today. Many knives today are works of art in their own right. Makers that are creating these spectacular knives, what's your mindset? Do you begin with how the knife is going to look when finished, or do you start a project thinking about how a knife is going to cut and the geometry needed to produce that cut? Does one detract from the other? Is there a trade off? Are there limiting factors involved?
Personally I think we are living in the golden age of knife making. But is there a sacrifice being made in order to bring these beautiful creations to life?
I'm interested in broadening my knowledge base so I can discuss what I make, in terms of what is happening today and the knives being made.
Thanks in advance, Fred
 
The beauty is - every maker determines that balance point for himself (ideally) or for their potential consumer (practically). Those few and far between who have a vision to create an object so good it immediately creates a demand upon release, they're nailing that point, and the rest of us are generally bobbling around on either side of it. That goes for what I do (woodwork) just as it goes for knives, or architecture, or whatever.

Unfortunately these days, the knife itself may become of secondary importance to the way or ways it is marketed - marketing itself becomes the primary product, because buying Uncle Jimbo's Patriot Monoglot Survival Sponge means that when you wash your dishes you're that much closer to representing what that sponge stands for. YMMV.
 
How long is a piece of string? more accurately; how large is an n-dimensional space? You're asking complex questions and the answers are complex

I have a general idea for the knife: shape, purpose, materials; but i let the smaller details evolve as i make the knife. I forge out of simple carbon steels, and work to the tolerances i can easily measure, because i want a piece that feels hand made and feels unique. I don't focus on how easy it is to sell, because i do this as a hobby and for creative expression.
the opposite approach of detailed planning and precise manufacture can make a good knife too. just for a different definition of good.
I think a lot of the works of art are designed to be art, but there are a similar styles that are popular so i think they are also designed to be art that can be sold.

I'm currently reading What's the use: on the use of use by Sarah Ahmed which has a lot relevant to this topic. A knife that is made to be sold is a different object to a knife where that is not an intended use.
 
I am always impressed at the skills of knifemakers and the amazing work they do. It really blows my mind at the masters of the craft.

For me I strive for simplicity, clean lines but impressive craftsmanship. You can hide mistakes in a lot of embellishment, but you can not hide mistakes in simplicity and clean lines. I strive for perfection but never reach it because I know where it can improve.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Do you begin with how the knife is going to look when finished, or do you start a project thinking about how a knife is going to cut and the geometry needed to produce that cut?
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I begin with your first option, but my focus is exploring damascus/canister/pattern-welding and the pattern (or 'how it looks when finished') is always the focus.
Fred.Rowe said:
Is there a trade off? Are there limiting factors involved?
Click to expand...
Yes, because the patterns I focus on, I'm pretty much limited to chef's knives/kitchen cultery for as large a pallet as I can get.
 
I think this is a super interesting question, but let me start out just by saying that I don't consider myself one of the makers that I think you're talking about, so I hope it's ok for me to opine.

Regardless, I will opine! Lol.

I think that the least well performing knives out there are completely counter to the type of knives that I think inspired the idea for this thread. Those poor performers are almost all within the 'tactical' genre- steep bevels, overly thick stock, poor balance and uncomfortable handles.

Now, when I look at an 'art' knife by someone who incorporates mosaic damascus, wire inlays, sculpted handles, high polish etc. I am almost always looking at a fighting knife, bowie and generally something weapony. A knife that's designed primarily as a weapon- if it's designed well- isn't going to function as a general purpose tool as well as a knife which is designed to be a tool. In a lot of those cases, maybe you're looking at something with a 10" blade, and the guy who made it is likely to use a wide piece of steel. Maybe to show off that pretty damascus, but usually to have thick stock but with a distal taper and shallow bevels for a super keen edge.

As a user of large knives, I can tell you from experience that a large blade that's ground with a more weapony fine edge is not going to hold up to rough use. The sheer mass and leverage ends up with rippled- or worse- edges. So then the question here is; what in the hell is a big fighter type knife like that good for? Not clearing brush, that I can tell you.

So, who uses knives as weapons? My guess is not knife collectors- most of them seem to have guns as well. A gun is more likely to be used as a weapon since you don't have to go up close to the other guy who has a knife in order to win the fight. So, these big fancy fighters just kind of hang out and provide their owner with satisfaction just by existing. I would expect that the maker feels about the same- I want to make this thing that challenges me and looks awesome. I'm going to make it so that it can cut you just by looking at it, because I know it'll never be used to cut roots off a muddy stump. I'll make it so that it can leave a bloody stump!

If a maker is going for the artsy fartsy approach, it's much more enjoyable and practical to focus on the 'knife is a weapon' thing than the 'knife is a tool' thing. Starting at the foundation- the design itself- there are limitless possibilities for weapons. You can't really say the same for tools. They have to be useful, or they're just a cartoon. Like all those tacticool knives that look like a tool but don't actually work for anything, except for maybe batoning your kindling or for digging a hole to poop in.

All knives start with a design, and that design is going to dictate tool or weapon. Those designed as tools can be tested and should be. Those designed as weapons will likely never be tested, and hopefully won't have to be. That leaves a ton of wiggle room. I like for my practical tool knives to look nice, but primarily they have to work as they should. Things like a chef knife or a fillet knife, an EDC or a hunting knife can be embellished, made from exotic materials and have top tier fit and finish. But they will always function like the tool they were designed to be. I don't consider these knives 'art'. I consider them luxury knives.

My opinion is that art starts at the design phase, as the only limitations are those imposed by whomever is inventing it. A lot of what makes an object 'art' is intention. I guess you could say the same for tools.

The above is obviously not definitive. Just my two cents.
 
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My design goes like this:
1 what style of knife do I want to make
2 how will it be comfortable in the hand
3 how can it be carried comfortably
4 how can I make it look good
 
For me it starts with the cut and the geometry to make that cut. Food prep is easily the best choice, whether field dressing, butchering, cooking, etc.
You can get really good factory made knives, so if your gonna do something by hand it should be aesthetically pleasing, it should be so darn cool looking that it actually inspires the user.
It is a tool after all, so it cant be so expensive that its likely to never be used. That's a tricky balance point right there :)
 
I make user knives. They're designed to be used by the purchaser. However, some of my clients have commented that the knife was to pretty to use. To me it was a working knive but they saw something differnt. They bought it to look at and show off. I'm not a museum quality maker but I do try to make the best usable attractive knive the customer will ever own. AS far as artistry is concerned that too is in the eye of theconsumer. One man's worker knife is another man's work of art.
 
Lots going on here.....
I like the parts about intent, and purpose. Art or tool (or Both).
Alot of good points have been made here, that i agree with.

I don't think a knife is a tool..... It's not Just a tool.
it's More than that.
It's deeper inside our history as man.

There are certain things we take for granted in life.
I come from a brewing (beer) background, and I often say Everything we have and associate within our existence is because of beer!
.... and I really mean that. It's true.
Beer is not something we just drink on Friday's afterwork to catch a buzz.
It's food preservation. It's a way to store and keep our grains safe and edible for long periods of time. Bread lasts a few days. Beer can last month's/years.
We can survive our winters, because of beer.
We left the equator and went North because of beer and some of the grains that could handle those extreme climates (oats, wheat, and barley)
Man could travel long distances because of beer. We sailed around the tip of Africa and go trade with others because of our preservation techniques. (I.P.A.)
Our first written words and language was a beer recipe we found in ancient Egypt. That's how important it was to keep and pass down.
I've read Louie Pasteur mostly was studying beer and it's effects from boiling? Milk gets the credit.
You can travel Anywhere in the world and safely drink their beers, yet their water could kill you.

Beer, like knives are more important than the sum of their parts.
They literally are a mixture of Art & Science.
Both are needed.

I think what we haven't yet discussed, is "the Soul".
Some articles that we cherish have them. Architecture, automobiles, furniture, fashion, songs, movies, food & drink........ all kinds of things.
I don't know how it happens? Is it because of Love, and that man made these things, and he is capable of loving things other than himself? Idk?

I knew a brewer who had his Doctorate in microbiology. He knew Way More about what was going on with beer than I could ever hope to imagine.
He was very precise. Very detailed. Very accurate. I learned a lot from him!
His beers were Sterile. and I don't mean that in a good way.
Somehow, they were empty. they had no soul. No emotion.
Not really enjoyable.


I've seen That with knives too.
 
velegski said:
I make user knives. They're designed to be used by the purchaser. However, some of my clients have commented that the knife was to pretty to use. To me it was a working knive but they saw something differnt. They bought it to look at and show off. I'm not a museum quality maker but I do try to make the best usable attractive knive the customer will ever own. AS far as artistry is concerned that too is in the eye of theconsumer. One man's worker knife is another man's work of art.
Click to expand...
The eye of the beholder or user as you stated. Very true.
 
Crag the Brewer said:
Lots going on here.....
I like the parts about intent, and purpose. Art or tool (or Both).
Alot of good points have been made here, that i agree with.

I don't think a knife is a tool..... It's not Just a tool.
it's More than that.
It's deeper inside our history as man.

There are certain things we take for granted in life.
I come from a brewing (beer) background, and I often say Everything we have and associate within our existence is because of beer!
.... and I really mean that. It's true.
Beer is not something we just drink on Friday's afterwork to catch a buzz.
It's food preservation. It's a way to store and keep our grains safe and edible for long periods of time. Bread lasts a few days. Beer can last month's/years.
We can survive our winters, because of beer.
We left the equator and went North because of beer and some of the grains that could handle those extreme climates (oats, wheat, and barley)
Man could travel long distances because of beer. We sailed around the tip of Africa and go trade with others because of our preservation techniques. (I.P.A.)
Our first written words and language was a beer recipe we found in ancient Egypt. That's how important it was to keep and pass down.
I've read Louie Pasteur mostly was studying beer and it's effects from boiling? Milk gets the credit.
You can travel Anywhere in the world and safely drink their beers, yet their water could kill you.

Beer, like knives are more important than the sum of their parts.
They literally are a mixture of Art & Science.
Both are needed.

I think what we haven't yet discussed, is "the Soul".
Some articles that we cherish have them. Architecture, automobiles, furniture, fashion, songs, movies, food & drink........ all kinds of things.
I don't know how it happens? Is it because of Love, and that man made these things, and he is capable of loving things other than himself? Idk?

I knew a brewer who had his Doctorate in microbiology. He knew Way More about what was going on with beer than I could ever hope to imagine.
He was very precise. Very detailed. Very accurate. I learned a lot from him!
His beers were Sterile. and I don't mean that in a good way.
Somehow, they were empty. they had no soul. No emotion.
Not really enjoyable.


I've seen That with knives too.
Click to expand...
I brew beer as well and this comparison is spot on. I'd never thought of it in these terms but you are correct.
 
I think the great knifemakers always consider the functionality of the knife as a tool, no matter if the knife is going to be used as a tool or admiring object.

Thats why I admire guys like Kyle Royer and Salem Straub, that make beautiful and functional knifes, although I think that some or most knives made by these makers won't be used as a tool.

There are tons of makers that make beautiful performance knives, that will never reach the price point of some of the extrinsic damascus patterned knives even if they would easily outperform them.

It's up to the market and knifemaker to decide what their goals are. As a hobby maker I try to implement new techniques in each knife and finish them within a reasonable time frame. I try to give my touch with material choice, handle shape and performance geometry for the given task.

IMHO there should be no makers choice on the HT, it should always be to the best standard and practices developed by the custom knife industry.
 
FredyCro said:
I think the great knifemakers always consider the functionality of the knife as a tool, no matter if the knife is going to be used as a tool or admiring object.

Thats why I admire guys like Kyle Royer and Salem Straub, that make beautiful and functional knifes, although I think that some or most knives made by these makers won't be used as a tool.

There are tons of makers that make beautiful performance knives, that will never reach the price point of some of the extrinsic damascus patterned knives even if they would easily outperform them.

It's up to the market and knifemaker to decide what their goals are. As a hobby maker I try to implement new techniques in each knife and finish them within a reasonable time frame. I try to give my touch with material choice, handle shape and performance geometry for the given task.

IMHO there should be no makers choice on the HT, it should always be to the best standard and practices developed by the custom knife industry.
Click to expand...
What is the best ht for a 9" chef knife. 15n20 zero grind 28 degree combined. Customer wants it as hard as it can be without getting too chippy? 1465 for 5 minutes and quench, temper twice at 350? Might depend on if you grind pre or post ht? Maybe 1480 for 10 minutes and 375? May depend on thickness? Maybe your Customer says he's pretty aggressive close to bones? Maybe go 1465 an bump the temper to 400? Or go with the best standards and practices developed by the custom knife making industry?
 
FredyCro said:
IMHO there should be no makers choice on the HT, it should always be to the best standard and practices developed by the custom knife industry.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this sentence
 
I don't mean to be combative at all, I just think that part of getting a custom knife is getting what you can't see. If you buy a quality production knife, you get the standard ht developed by the custom knife making industry. If you buy a custom knife, you can buy qualities you can't see, that's one of the best things about a custom knife built by a maker that can custom ht. The maker can help you get the steel to not just look how you want it to look, but get it to behave how you want it to behave. I have a simple system, but can make 15n20 serve two entirely different purposes and do it consistently. Sushi knife or combat knife, it's good for both.....just depends on how you treat it.
 
Ok, I see your point, I think I formulated it too shortly and not really how I meant. I was mostly referring to HT stainless in the forge and similiar. I do however think that material choice and geometry choice will influence the factors (performance) that your talking about much more then the heat treat itself (assuming you are following the given HT standards, using an oven and hardness testing your knives).

And then there is guys, who develop their own HT and use extensive testing to show that it is better then an usual procedure advised by the steel manufacturer. But again, I think most will agree that if you do follow certain guidelines on your HT and achieve a reasonable hardness, grain structure and so on, primarily it will be geometry and material that dictates the performance and not the HT itself.
 
I decide on what hardness to specify based on the design and intended application. Then the company doing the heat treatment employs a standard procedure expected to achieve the best composition and properties at that hardness. As you say it's possible in some cases to improve on that procedure in some way via extensive testing.
 
There is no need to balance form, aesthetics and functionality, they all converge at perfection. I would argue that for most of us an attractive knife is one that performs, feels right and looks great. No amount of decorative elaboration can cover up for an uncomfortable grip, poor balance or a weak cutting performance. Go too far in that direction and you end up with a knife-like wall hanger.


n2s
 
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