Where is the line between Production and Customs?

Dan Gray

Dan Gray

Joined
Jun 25, 2001
Messages
8,474
Where is the line between production and Custom hand made knives?
This tends to be a big difference of
opinion between makers.
Some makers feel if you use a miller then your getting into factory making,
Some feel as long as you control the machine by hand your hand making.
If you surface grind yourself or you buy your stock pre ground is there a difference?

I think, but don't do myself, a true hand made knife would be getting your own ore and
smelt it yourself putting in carbon as you see fit from the coke, then forge the blade using
your hand made tools and hand made files you make yourself.
Make sure you make the forge and anvil by hand also,
well you get the point, this would be great BUT if it were this way, not many custom
makers would grace the knife world.
***What do you think the line is?
*********
I do consider my knives Custom Hand Made
Because of most the reasons you guys gave below.
I forgot to add Bench-made in between the two.
But talking to others on the subject
I thought I'd get some good views on it.. thanks.

*********

Good thing my knives are sharper then my spelling.
...Dan..
.<A HREF="http://www.kynd.com/~graydg/kniveslist4.html">Gray Knives</A>


[This message has been edited by Graymaker (edited 06-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Graymaker (edited 06-28-2001).]
 
Gray,

Every one has an opinion.

But for an established guide line you should probably check with the US Knifemakers Guild.

One basic rule of thumb. Is it one maker working on the knife (custom), or does the knife have several people working on it (production)?



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Hi Dan... I will tell you that I'm not a big fixed blade fan, but your M135, and 105 are making me crazy.
smile.gif
I love the short blades, and they have a unique style to them. You might be hearing from me soon... Excellent work Dan!

As far as your statement goes, I hear what you are saying, but I will have to disagree with you, that there is a fine line between production, and custom. My feeling is that, a car is not made by one person, but yet you can customize it, and you call the person that did the work, a custom car maker. Well, I guess you can say the same For a knifemaker.

There are many very, very fine knife makers out there that I call custom makers, but yet they use someone elses damascus, or have someone else heat treat their steel, or do their anodizing. I also consider their knives, custom. You also see their worth in the prices they can demand, and get for their knives. Then there are makers that are the sole authors of their knives. Makers such as Joe Szilaski, Rick Hinderer, Shaun Hansen, Don Hanson III to name a few. These are some of the makers that I'm very familiar with. They are real artisans, and their pieces show it in workmanship, and also in the price.

That's just my take on the matter Dan.
smile.gif
Take care!

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[This message has been edited by narruc1 (edited 06-28-2001).]
 
"Hand" making, IMO, is defined far less by the tools used, but more on the number of people involved in the operation. I'm not going to get into smelting ore, or herding fossilized mammoths (ah, the easy life of herding fossilized animals...) for ivory, because they're just silly and don't apply to the making of the knife. If every person who has had a hand in the production of the knife (cutting, milling, polishing, fabricating, etc.) gets their name on the blade, then fine, it's a hand made collaboration.

If a maker starts sourcing parts, or using outside fabricators (laser/water cutters outside of their own shop, etc.), then the knife is at minimum a "semi-production" piece. If they have a shop full of helpers performing "minor" operations, then the knife has been made using production methods. If they have a pattern programmed into a CNC mill that they use to crank out interchangeable parts, the knife is definitely a production piece.

As regards series knives, I would certainly give "credit" for fabricating each knife individually, as opposed to producing batches of interchangeable parts, but they are still semi-production knives, lacking the uniqueness that is reserved for "true" customs. I applaud makers who use distinct marks on series/shop made knives to help discern them from knives they have worked on individually.

I buy knives produced in all manners. I have more Spyderco knives than many people have knives at all. I have series knives, prototypes, and one-of-a-kind art knives. How they are produced does matter to me, but not in terms of assessing the knife's quality. The only judgement that the production method terminology allows me to make is in regards to the maker/owner/seller. If they know the difference, but use the "wrong" term, then they're either lying or hyping. If they don't know the difference, well...
 
This really comes down to two very distictive questions:

1) Is the knife a unique, as in one of a kind, or a standard design that has been produced in some quantity?

2) Is it the work of a single author, or the work of a production team?

As with everything else technology will eventually blur the distinction between production and custom. Even though "custom" pieces currently sell at a premium there is no technical reason why a production piece could not exceed it in quality of materials, design, fit, finishing and performance.

Within a few years we may be able to log onto a website, or walk into a store, and use a simple CAD tool to develop and order whatever configuration of knife we want. Within minutes or perhaps a few days our special knife will arrive in the mail, and the finish on the piece would be exactly as we specified as only something with a machine's tolerance can produce. Then we will all be truely custom knife makers.

n2s

 
Well, there certainly is a difference between "production," "custom" and "handmade." Custom does not necessarily mean Handmade, and vise-versa. One can buy or build a truly "custom" hot rod, but it sure as hell ain't handmade.

Say a maker has a fixed line of knife designs. He makes them all using only hand tools and forging but does not deviate from these designs. Sure they are handmade, sole-authored, or whatever, but if the buyer has no control over the design and look of the knives then how can they truly be called custom?

By definition a "custom" knife is one made to a customer's specifications. Say I design a knife and work with a maker to have it realized. I wouldn't really much care if the maker used a CNC mill, laser/water cut components, crew of lackeys for various odd jobs etc., as long as the final knife turned out as close to the way I envisioned it as possible. It would be a true custom-made piece, and chances are anything that I might design would require the use of advanced tech to make it look/work right...

PM.
 
Well said, Mr44.

Consulting a dictionary, the word "custom" evidently derives, in a round about way, from a Latin source akin to "with one's own". Thus, a knife made "with one's own" specifications in mind ought to deserve the label "custom", regardless of how the knife is actually made, or by whom.

If, on the other hand, the issue is WHO made the knife or WITH WHAT TECHNOLOGY, then perhaps we need to look for more appropriate labels.

I understand why collectors might value knives that have passed through certain hands in limited numbers. Some of these knives actually are "custom" in the etymological sense of the word.

In our economy, I can't imagine a knife being produced completely by a single individual. How many knifemakers make their own tools? How many smelt their own ore? Where do you draw the line? Consequently, I personally don't attach very much importance to the WHO and HOW issues, as long as I can have the knife that's right for me.

David Rock




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AKTI Member # A000846
Stop when you get to bone.
 
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