Where is the line drawn?

[Comeuppance]

I've been looking at all sorts of knives that could arguably be called "modern" or "traditional" - and I'm not sure what crosses the line in that regard.

For example:

Spyderco Air - relatively traditional design, but with modern materials. It locks, but many traditionals have back and liner locks.

Enzo Birk PK70 - It's a slipjoint, but has a pocket clip... But so do some case knives. Take off the clip, and you have a S30v slipjoint in wood or CF, reasonably sized for in-pocket carry. Additionally, being very similar to a traditional Puuko design, it could be considered both modern and traditional.

Fallkniven U1 - Clipless slipjoint with laminated super gold steel ("3G") - modern materials, but if CF slipjoints with powder metallurgy steels like CPM-154 are traditional, is this?

Maserin Atti - Linerlock clipless S35vn folder, with wood handles and file work. Again, what side of the fence does this fall on?

I feel like it could be argued either way on all of these. Traditional patterns are regional, and we definitely aren't solely focused on Western traditionals given that there's a notable appreciation for European and Japanese traditional knives here, as well as South African and others. Modern iterations seem acceptable given the proliferation of powder metallurgy, carbon fiber, G10, etc.

Is the line that blurry, or are there some defining characteristics I'm overlooking?

 

[wundergussy]

Well, if the term is specifically "traditional," I'd argue the line falls on patterns (not materials) that have a historical lineage.

 

[Comeuppance]

Well, if the term is specifically "traditional," I'd argue the line falls on patterns (not materials) that have a historical lineage.

If that is the case, then the only odd one out in that list is the Atti - all of the rest are established patterns from before 1900 (I'm really just assuming that the U1 design is pretty basic and has been done for some time, but I could easily be wrong with that assumption)

 

[sitflyer]

I the past, pocket clips, thumbhole blades, and blade studs for one hand opening, have been no-no's in these parts.

 

[Primble]

For the most part, all of the knives you have shown would be considered modern, IMO. Thumb studs, thumb holes, pocket clips, and possibly modern screws attaching the handles (absence of pins) will mostly get your knife censored from traditional knives, at least that has always been my understanding. That would include modern Case knives with the pocket clips/studs. I imagine Frank and/or Gary might be along later to address it.

 

[Comeuppance]

I the past, pocket clips, thumbhole blades, and blade studs for one hand opening, have been no-no's in these parts.

So, clipped pocket slips, but no clips on knives?

I do generally associate traditional knives with two-handed opening, so I can see how that would put the Maserin Atti and Spyderco Air out as well - really just leaving the Enzo (sans clip) and the Fallkniven.

 

[Jack Black]

Traditional patterns are regional, and we definitely aren't solely focused on Western traditionals given that there's a notable appreciation for European and Japanese traditional knives here, as well as South African and others.

I'm not aware of pocket-clips or thumb-studs being considered traditional ANYWHERE.

See: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...d-Blades-quot-Sub-Forum?p=5297415#post5297415

These issues are raised often by newcomers to the Traditional forum. Some knives are best discussed in General. The forum guidelines are pretty clear I think, and often repeated.

 

[Comeuppance]

For the most part, all of the knives you have shown would be considered modern, IMO. Thumb studs, thumb holes, pocket clips, and possibly modern screws attaching the handles (absence of pins) will mostly get your knife censored from traditional knives, at least that has always been my understanding. That would include modern Case knives with the pocket clips/studs. I imagine Frank and/or Gary might be along later to address it.

If we're to eschew modern materials like screws, then are CF, 154CM / CPM154, and micarta all out the window? I wouldn't say screws are modern, either, as they were in use from the late 1500s and onwards.

 

[wolfeknives]

I think that the "line" may be somewhat personal. To me, none of the above would be considered traditional. The modern liner lock was invented and patented by Walker in recent years. It is in fact very different from the traditional lock. It does not fall into any of the Traditional categories, friction, backspring or other since it relies only on the bent liner to keep it open and closed. Most are built on bearings supported by bushings and large screws, again, not traditional.
For me personally, screws, pocket clips and modern materials are things I would not have on any of the traditionals I own. The only concession are some of the English exhebition knives, which on rare occasions may have used very small slotted screws.

Wolfe

 

[jackknife]

I can honesty see how the line can get a little blurred now and then. But I always thought a very easy way to figure it out was; would a working cowpoke in the 1880's recognize it? Or your great grandfather recognize it as something from his era?

Most of the traditional knives have a root someplace in a historical setting. The stockman, the trapper, the barlow, the sleeveboard pen, the lobster, all where common place in the 1800's and earlier. I figure that's a good place to start.

 

[Comeuppance]

I'm not aware of pocket-clips or thumb-studs being considered traditional ANYWHERE.

See: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...d-Blades-quot-Sub-Forum?p=5297415#post5297415

These issues are raised often by newcomers to the Traditional forum. Some knives are best discussed in General. The forum guidelines are pretty clear I think, and often repeated.

Fair enough! That's why I asked. I'm not trying to stir up anything - just trying to peg down specifics.

All of these are knives that I looked at and thought "Mmmm, it doesn't quite seem traditional, but I'm not sure exactly why."

 

[Jack Black]

At some point, Frank and Gary will appear and have to repeat what they've already said countless times in relation to the same issue. I imagine that is rather tiresome. Nothing wrong with the questions, but they have already been answered many times. I think posters here can see the sort of knives under discussion here quite easily, and what they do and don't include. There may be some grey areas, but thumb-studs and pocket-clips are definitely not included :thumbup:

 

[Whetstone39]

I can honesty see how the line can get a little blurred now and then. But I always thought a very easy way to figure it out was; would a working cowpoke in the 1880's recognize it? Or your great grandfather recognize it as something from his era?

Most of the traditional knives have a root someplace in a historical setting. The stockman, the trapper, the barlow, the sleeveboard pen, the lobster, all where common place in the 1800's and earlier. I figure that's a good place to start.

This is how I think of it as well, nicely summarized sir.

 

[Jack Black]

Fair enough! That's why I asked. I'm not trying to stir up anything - just trying to peg down specifics.

All of these are knives that I looked at and thought "Mmmm, it doesn't quite seem traditional, but I'm not sure exactly why."

I know that Go with your instincts :thumbup:

 

[Comeuppance]

Eh, I figure there's no real point in bogging this down with more redundant definitions. I feel satisfied with the answers thus far and am just going to lock the thread to keep my newbishness from cluttering up the front page.

Thank you, everyone, for your replies and input!

 

[Peregrin]

I think that the members have answered your questions pretty well. It is, as was mentioned, a grey area.

Just to restate a few things; thumb studs, spider holes, pocket clips are all going to get a definite "not traditional". It's more about the pattern and construction of the knife then the blade steel, cover material etc.

If your great grandpa might have carried something like it, it's probably ok here. Knives from around the world, that are considered traditional to the particular country, are also welcome as we have wide audience and we want everyone who loves traditional knives to feel at home.

Lots of room on the porch! If you have any other specific questions feel free to PM Frank or me.