Where to draw the line on "borrowing" designs?

mike deibert

mike deibert

Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
378
There has been something bothering me for a while when it comes to knife design and I would love to hear from some of the other makers out there who might be able to give some insight on this issue.

I have been forging blades on and off for a couple years now. I'm not a fulltime maker but I have done a lot of forging. I spend a lot of time looking at the work of other bladesmiths and I have spoken to many on various issues. Like many others out there I have a few makers whose work I admire a lot. When I'm designing a new knife I always find myself drawing what I've seen from the people I admire. My question is, when have I crossed the line in regards to "stealing" someone else's design?

Jason Knight has been an awesome teacher and mentor to me in the ways of bladesmithing. He always encourages me to use his ideas here and there. As much as I would love to come up with something on my own I always see the influence of others in my work no matter how hard I try to be creative. Someone once told me the definition of creativity is "forgetting where you stole it". :DAlthough there is a lot of truth to that I would love to know what some of you more experienced makers feel about ownership of design and how someone new, like myself, may find themselves crossing the line when making and selling a piece of his/her own.

Any and all thoughts are welcome.
Thank you,
Mike
 
Ride it like you stole it!
 
If you see elements of others' work in your knives, there is nothing wrong with that. If you are directly copying the work of other makers, that can be a different situation all together. There are makers that don't seem to mind when their designs are copied and there are makers that just hate it.

It is very understandable that you would incorporate design elements into your knives from the makers that you learned from. I see it all the time. Many makers start out that way and over time develop their own recognizable style. Others continue to make knives in the style of those they learned from.

I'm very interested in seeing what others think about this.
 
A few weeks ago, Will York posted up three knives that he designed and then commissioned three different makers to put together for him.
It was a totally successful endeavor and I applauded his efforts.
Right away, I was compelled to email him and show him a style I'd been making for two years. Lacking the false edge, it was almost exactly like what he described!
I didn't want one of mine to show up in the future and have him think I stole his design on purpose.
I guess my point is that it will be difficult at this stage of the knife making industry to make something that hasn't already been done in BASIC knife design.
I just make what I make and if it looks like someone else's - oh, well.
In this case it was the other way around.

WIH8-1.jpg


3MS.jpg
 
I have a design and was holding it while looking through some knife pictures... wifey pointed out that the handle looked a lot like a Sendero... I emailed Jerry Fisk and asked his permission.... his reply? "No matter how much you try to copy one of my designs it will be a Leavitt, it won't be a Fisk because we work differently. Go ahead."

Lorien may remember when we were discussing a golok design and I was all crazy about some design features that I wanted to incorporate from watching Last of the Mohicans and the rifle stock warclubs they used..... did some research, 500 year old design looked 99% just like mine. :eek: I've never even looked at a golok before Lorien mentioned it.

My teacher says there's nothing new under the sun because we've been making knives for 5000 or so years. Take a little from the people you admire and make your own style. Make your own knives and be happy, they'll speak to someone and you'll have a customer. He constantly reminds me to "make WILL knives, not some other damn maker's knives." He's a good teacher and I'm a lucky person.
 
Knifemakers, even world class ones may borrow
a perfect design from other knifemakers, but always
after getting their approval.

Edmund Davidson does this from time to time but
always states so in his name etch on the blade...

See one such example here.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

From my book
"Edmund Davidson The Art of the Integral Knife" (2008)
New-2.jpg
 
I emailed Jerry Fisk and asked his permission.... his reply? "No matter how much you try to copy one of my designs it will be a Leavitt, it won't be a Fisk because we work differently. Go ahead."
Click to expand...

Amen!! I've noticed that this issue seems to be the "buzz" everywhere in the knife world right now. Don't worry about it. Jerry's statement pretty much sums it up.
I would expect that "newer" makers knives would look very much like their mentors and/or favorite makers....at least for the first couple of years. During that time a person is developing and finding the aspects of a knife that they like/dislike, and developing into what will eventually be a style of their own.
In most cases I am flattered when someone thinks enough of a knife I have designed/built to "copy" it...."copy" is really the wrong word....more like "use it as an example".
My best example is my EBKs....when I first introduced them years ago, there was nothing else out there like them...today just about everyone produces something similar. And a few makers will just flat tell you that they are their versions of the EBK. I choose to look at that as having contributed something to the knife world.
My conscience would not allow me to knowingly make a detailed copy of something that someone else produces...but I think that just about all knifemakers have "borrowed" aspects, ideas, and designs from someone else. My advice is to not let it worry you. There is enough personalization in knives that you could lay out a dozen knives from as many top makers, with the marks covered, and I could tell you who made each one...simply from the little touches of personalization they employ.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
A few weeks ago, Will York posted up three knives that he designed and then commissioned three different makers to put together for him.
It was a totally successful endeavor and I applauded his efforts.
Right away, I was compelled to email him and show him a style I'd been making for two years. Lacking the false edge, it was almost exactly like what he described!
I didn't want one of mine to show up in the future and have him think I stole his design on purpose.
I guess my point is that it will be difficult at this stage of the knife making industry to make something that hasn't already been done in BASIC knife design.
I just make what I make and if it looks like someone else's - oh, well.
In this case it was the other way around.

WIH8-1.jpg


3MS.jpg
Click to expand...

You make a good point Karl as I'm not sure how many truly unique designs we see, especially in traditional (non-tactical) fixed-blades. Many if not most are a version or maker's rendition (even if not conscious of such) of a previous design or style. One of my first thoughts when seeing the three hunters posted above was that they were not too different from fine hunters I have seen from makers in the past.
 
Will Leavitt said:
I have a design and was holding it while looking through some knife pictures... wifey pointed out that the handle looked a lot like a Sendero... I emailed Jerry Fisk and asked his permission.... his reply? "No matter how much you try to copy one of my designs it will be a Leavitt, it won't be a Fisk because we work differently. Go ahead."
Click to expand...

Jerry's Sendero is not the most, but certainly one of the most influential hunter designs in existence. It's pleasing from both aesthetic and ergonomic prospectives and he's been making examples every year for 18 years.

Having said the above, I believe Jerry is very pleased each time he sees a maker creating his/her version of it. This is a very positive way to look at it imo.
 
It's definitely okay to let your designs be influenced by other knives. In fact, it's flattering for the other knife maker.
Even outright copying is flattering, as long as you don't sell it to anyone, and admit it's a copy. Most knife makers would be okay with that.
 
The only maker I have ever tried my best to copy is Loveless. I still like his lines and he doesnt care if we use em. It certainly hasnt hurt his business.
 
Like has been said, there are no new designs. Anyone who studies the history of knives will find "new designs" that were made many years ago. If each of us gives credit to past makers who inspired various aspects of the design of our knives it will make the job of future historians (if there are any) easier to trace the design back to its origin.

Giving credit where credit is due is both honest and promotes good feelings in our community.
 
2knife said:
Karl,
I thought that set of 3 had a similarity to something Bark River might have made style-wise, but didnt want to insult anyone:
http://barkriverknives.com/gallery/album158.

Or, might think these 3 also had the influence of a Herron-style handle.
David
Click to expand...

The truth is, if you go back to the original thread that Will York made on those three knives, you can see that each of those makers built the knives according to his exact specs.
They were NOT each attempting to make knives based on any other maker's works.
Will came up with each criteria based upon his personal needs and experience, which only goes to show that many, many knives can look similar when function dictates the needs and design of the knife!
It would actually be odd for knives to look dissimilar when made to accomplish the same task.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
The truth is, if you go back to the original thread that Will York made on those three knives, you can see that each of those makers built the knives according to his exact specs.
They were NOT each attempting to make knives based on any other maker's works.
Will came up with each criteria based upon his personal needs and experience, which only goes to show that many, many knives can look similar when function dictates the needs and design of the knife!
It would actually be odd for knives to look dissimilar when made to accomplish the same task.
Click to expand...

Very true IMO.
 
specifically referring to collectors....the better your eye is, the more you notice the DIFFERENCES than the similarities, and for me, that is where the real passion comes in.

To my eye, I see massive differences between Will's knives and Karl's....the belly of the blade being a big difference, and the sculpting of the handle as well. The length of the guard relative to the others must be noticed as well.

The statement that there is nothing new is myopic, imo. All you have to do is look carefully. There are new mechanisms, new shapes and new applications being developed all the time.

The Graham Brothers Razel is an example that comes to mind. You have your chisel, and you have your knives, but how many makers did a knife that is complete hybrid of both, even historically? None that I know of.

Now, Kit Carson made a diving knife a few years back that Buck did a factory version of, and I love that knife, but it is a knife with a chisel tip...the similarities or differences are there, depending upon how hard you are looking and with what kind of eye.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I doubt there's anyone who can't see the above Hunters (Karl's design vs. Will's design) are different. It's just when many are striving to make the perfect hunter we get hunters that are more similar than dis-similar.

Many of the makers whose Hunter designs are the most copied vary from piece to piece. Jerry's Senderos always have subtle differences except when his intent is to make them close the same.

FordProject2008.jpg
 
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