Where to find a good arkansas stone/strop + examine my setup

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blandies

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Aug 18, 2011
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I am trying to better the edges on knives I make, so far I have been using nothing but files. But recently I purchased a coarse and fine diamond Dmt whetstone as dmt calls it. The advice given to me says those 2 stones alone will work for initially starting the edge but to get a fine arkansas stone and strop to finish it up.

Now I looked into it more and it seems fine would be "hard arkansas" and oil is a must with use. I'm having trouble finding the right one to order on the internet. I found this one below

http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=49_278&products_id=1462

and then there are these which have more than one "hard stone" choice

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Arkansas-Stones-C96.aspx?gclid=CNzk46SIuqsCFSoCQAodXhJQdQ

Are any of those the correct ones? The second link seems a bit pricey.
I have been looking for strops too, does anybody know of a good web site to get one? Is compound necessary with stropping?


Here is my process below. If anybody sees something that may mess up my stones please let me know. I want to make sure I have this right so I don't waste $100.00+.

1. Get the knife to it's final shape and put bevels on.
2. Heat treat.
3. Start with "dmt coarse diamond whetstone" to establish initial edge.
4. Use "dmt fine diamond whetstone" to refine edge.
5. Use arkansas stone with oil to complete edge.
6. Strop on leather,with compound??
Done.
 
Your process seems OK. I have a couple of hard Arkansas stones, and don't use them much anymore. I find I can achieve similar, or better results more quickly with Japanese water stones. Nothing wrong with the hard Arkansas stones though, they'll give you a good edge.

The range of prices in the links seems typical. I'd go with a bigger, single stone in a box, since you'll be using it often, and don't need a rougher stone.

I can't comment fully on differences between types/colors in the hard stones. One I have is OLD, my grandfather's stone. It's somewhat translucent in color, and seems finer than my newer hard stone, which is more of an opaque off-white.

As far as strops, I prefer razor-type strops, i.e. not a "bench strop" with a hard backing. Also, it's not essential, but nicer strops are often made with horsehide, which does do a better job. Classicshaving.com has got a good selection of stones and strops, as well.

If you're doing all of the sharpening on stones, and ending with a good fine stone, honing or stropping paste shouldn't be necessary. At least, I don't find it to be, and I shave with a straight razor.

Just my $.02.
 
The type or steel you are using will make a difference in how well the sharpening tools work. Diamonds are great but overkill on basic carbon steels and steels with low hardness, they are made for high wear super steels and work best with such.

A coarse DMT is not all that coarse and is not a stone I would start bevels with, its one in a series of coarse stones and is the finest of the 3. Considered more of a prep stone for the start of using "fine grit" diamond hones.

Arkansas stones are a classic way to sharpen but also the slowest and least efficient.

If I were to hand sharpen a new knife a belt sander to start the bevel and a 1k & 6k waterstone to finish would be my 3 step process. Not really anything wrong with the way you planned to do it but there are better ways.
 
Where can I find a quality japanese water stone? Those I know nothing about but it seems many websites sell some that look very cheaply made. I'm assuming just get one japanese stone instead of the one arkansas stone, so a "fine" japanese stone.

I'm not using stones for making bevels, I'm using them to make my cutting edges. I will be using 154cm steel and up. That's why I was curious if the coarse dmt whetstone would be able to make the initial edge.

Same process as above except on step 5. use a fine japanese waterstone for edge completion instead of the arkansas stone.
 
How thick are your edges typically, before sharpening?

Japan Woodworker.com has a good selection of water stones, so does classicshaving.com.

My method is similar to knifeknut's, I put an edge on and raise a burr with my belt sander, stopping at 600 grit. Then, I either power strop with green dope, or go to #1200, #4000, then #8000 waterstones followed by a bare strop.

Here's a good combination stone. One thing you will notice about water stones, they can be a bit pricey.

http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522944/196094.htm
 
You have to sand/grind the whole blade after HT and before sharpening. The stones are the last step after the knife is done, usually.
 
This was just a roughed overview, I will be sanding the blade after heat treat to get the finish I want and to get the bevels complete if necessary. My fault for not mentioning that.

I'm unsure of how thick my edges are exactly I don't have a caliper. All I do right now are flat grinds no hollows. Blade sizes are generally in the 4-7" range not including the handle.

So I'm guessing I'll need a 4000-8000 grit japanese waterstone. Coarse dmt diamond whetstone for making initial edge, fine dmt diamond whetstone for refining edge, "xxxx" grit Japanese water stone for completing edge, and now strop with no compound. Question now is what grit on the water stone.

I found these for an affordable price since I will only be needing one. Any opinions on this brand?

http://www.nihonzashi.com/water_stones.aspx
 
Most folks do more damage to the water stones that they do metal removal to the knife. Using water stones is an art. I would just sand the blade to 2000+ with wet-or-Dry paper, and then use the DMT plates to shape the edge. A fine water stone (4000) or Arkansas stone will smooth the rough surface left by the diamonds, and a strop or buffer will make a wicked sharp edge. Paper wheels are another method.
 
I've been using crude methods for making edges for a good while. I would like to learn to use these stones. I'm sure with enough time spent watching you tube videos and reading I can figure out how to use them properly.

6000 will get me finished up on the edge and ready for the final strop. That should clear up finishing an edge for me.

I just took an old unsharpened heat treated knife and tried using my dmt coarse whetstone to create an edge and it is not seeming to be doing much of anything. This is where my concern came in for me needing a coarser different type of stone to make the initial edge. I really didn't want to use my belt sander for this.

Here is what I will be doing on my next batch of knives
1.Finish knife shape and bevels
2.Heat treat
3.Resand and grind for desired finish and bevels
4.Create initial edge with coarse dmt diamond whetstone ...may have problems here
5.Refine the edge with the fine dmt diamond whetstone
6.Use 6000 grit japanese waterstone to finish edge
7.Strop without compound

I really think I have the feel for getting started in stone sharpening. Hopefully my above methods will work and make a good edge. I really can't thank everyone enough for the help.
 
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Honestly, you are jumping from rough to fine too quickly. Somewhere between the DMT and the 6000 water stone you need to clean up the edge.


If you really want to get into the sharpening and edge shaping thing, investigate a set of water stones. It will require making a pond ( tank for the stones) and setting up a sharpening table/bench ( called a togi bench). It takes a good deal of practice to learn to sharpen with water stones, but the resulting edge is unsurpassed.
You will need a set of four to six stones, plus an aroto stone to flatten them as they dish out. The natural stones can be quite expensive, but the synthetic stones work just fine for most tasks. It will take many hours of practice to get the routine down.100 knifes to learn on is not unrealistic. Expect to invest up to $1000 in a good setup. If you get into serious togi, you can spend many thousands.
Check out the natural and synthetic stones at Woodcraft:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2004486/Norton-Waterstones.aspx
http://www.woodcraft.com/Category/1004026/Water-Stones.aspx
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000242/2000242.aspx
 
I really would like to get set up for this piece by piece as money permits. So far I only have the 2 DMT diamond whetstones, coarse and fine. I only really have about $40-50 more to spend right now for something that will at least let me make some good knives but it seems I need quite a bit more stones to make good edges.

What japanese stone grits would you recommend in order paired with my dmt stones? Like I said I will be getting more stones as money permits but right now I would like to at least be able to even make an edge and get a knife edge finished without the belt sander.
I was watching a Japanese fellow earlier online with 4 stones and a flattener, this is a good setup and only cost about $50 per stone. Nothing near thousands of dollars.
 
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Trying to use the DMT hones and waterstones really won't work that well for you. A 1000 grit waterstone is similar to a coarse/fine diamond, and with carbon steels a 1k stone will usually outperform both the C & F DMT in speed and edge refinement. If you had a DMT XXC 120 mesh stone and wanted to move to waterstones it would be a different story but the diamonds you have are too similar to a medium grit waterstone.

I would recommend a set of 3 waterstones, nothing more nothing less.

Option A:
220 grit green silicon carbide stone
1k & 6k Arashiyama (my favorite stones)

Option B:
Naniwa Omura 150 grit
Naniwa Aotoshi 2k
Kitiyama 8k

Option C: add one stone.
Blue Aoto 2k

chefknivestogo, highlandwoodworking, japanwoodworker, are all good places to find quality waterstones.
 
Is there any other methods of sharpening that will work with my dmt stones? Forgetting the japanese water stones for now.
At this point I'm just wanting to make quality sharp edges without use of a belt sander or paper wheels. I have the 2 dmt stones I went out and purchased so it would be nice if I could find a system where I can use those 2 stones in the process. If you had around $60 to spend what would you add to the 2 dmt stones I have to make good edges with?

I think I'm going to wait for some extra income to hit me before looking into japanese water stones, it seems that's the best thing to do right now. Even making a knife is the important part.
 
The problem is that the DMT hones you have are for maintaining a edge and not making one, they are coarse but not coarse enough and fine but not fine enough. Diamonds also cut deeper scratches than other types of stones so moving to a single finishing stone of different abrasive type is not as easy as it sounds.

Again, the steel you use will play a part in stone selection. If its carbon steel like I'm thinking it is then you are truthfully creating more work by using the diamond hone. The steel does not have enough wear resistance for the hone to work correctly and actually cuts the metal slower, like i mentioned earlier a 1k waterstone would be faster and produce better results than both the DMT hones you have now. Now don't get me wrong I'm probably DMT's biggest fan but every steel has its stone. I use my DMT stones when needed, if I work on S90V its diamonds and if I work on 1095 its waterstones. Using the wrong tool for the job usually makes things harder.


How long is it taking you to complete a edge?
How sharp? Shaving with irritation or without? Popping hair? Hair cuts without feeling?
Sharpness and appearance you want?

If you want to test the waters a king 1k 6k combo stone costs about $35 and will give you a basic idea of what waterstones can do.
 
I work with 154cm, cpm 154, and sometimes s30v.
My edges usually take 4 hours and the final edge looks o.k. but does not shave or cut paper slices. It's not a good edge for my standards.

I'm thinking I need to try and sell these 2 dmt's I bought and get nothing but waterstones now.
Keep in mind my knives are all flat grinds so wouldn't sharpening be done at a 0degree? Or do flat grind knives take a 20degree or so edge bevel?
 
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Ok that helps a lot knowing the steels. Diamonds will be fine for what you want, I would add the Extra fine 1200 mesh and a coarse Norton silicon carbide stone. That stays in your budget and will give you very sharp edges.

The 1200 DMT will yield a extremely sharp and toothy edge but it is extremely important with diamonds to let them do the work. If you use more than the weight of the blade when sharpening it becomes counterproductive to the process.

Flat ground blades are typically sharpened with a V bevel at the desired angle of the user. With the steels you use 30 inclusive would be my Target angle.
 
Just out of curiosity since you said different stones for different steels... would japanese water stones not be any good for 154cm and s30v? I still planned on getting some water stones later on but if it is no good for the steel I work with that would be worth knowing.

Is this the stone your referring to?

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Crystolon-Bench-Stone-8-x-3-P24C5.aspx

And this stone below will create the initial edge bevel on steel? I was having difficulty getting an edge shaped on it earlier

http://theconsumerlink.com/DIAMONDMACHININGTECHNOLOGY/detail/TCL+W6CP/102
 
Some waterstones have difficulties with some types of steels, waterstone option A, or king waterstones would be examples of stones best for carbon steels. A steel like S30V laughs at these stones.

The Norton Sic stone would be for setting bevels then you would follow with the DMT C/F/EF and done.

Option B above is a example of stones that will cut any steel.
 
Ok that clears things up. I'm really trying to wrap my head around all of this, every knife I've ever made couldn't even cut paper so I needed to figure this out.
Now will regular drilling lubricant oil be ok to use for lubricant on the norton silic stone? I seen it requires oil for use.
The description says "If speed is more important than the ultimate quality of the edge, the Crystolon bench stones are a good choice."
That doesn't sound too assuring.
 
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