Where to start?

5

59Bassman

Joined
Jul 5, 2007
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So I'm in my early 40's. I grew up hunting and fishing across northern MN and Ontario. Many of these trips were camping, normally supported by some sort of vehicle (boats, mostly). I have not camped since age 16, IIRC. Two things happened in the past week to make me think that I need to start again.

First, I went to my second Bark River Grind-In, and while making knives I met Kyle Ver Steeg who asked me why my butt has not been seen at one of Ethan Becker's gatherings. I live within an hour of those events. When I admitted I was concerned that I'd be out of place because I didn't know how to light a fire with only my teeth and a peach pit, I was corrected that the fires would be lit before I got there, and if I wanted to learn such skills, all I had to do was ask and put aside my ego for a bit.

Second, I saw my brother for the first time in a year. While I was up grinding knives, he was coming back from a week long canoe trip in the BWCA, in a cedar strip canoe he build himself. A trip through Frost River's shop got the wheels turning, and I started feeling nostalgic for campfires on isolated Canadian lakes.

So where to I start. I live in East TN, about an hour from the Smoky Mountain national park. I own a bunch of packs, but none of them over 1800 cc, and nothing with a frame. I'm OK on knives, hatchets, and clothing. My wife is not likely to participate. So what should I look at doing/purchasing/investigating first?
 
If I were you I'd look at some hammocks and depending on what weather you anticipate a decent sleeping bag. Starting a fire is easy, get a fire steel and try it in the back yard with some dryer lint under a few leaves and twigs. Lots of videos on how too, basically hold the striker/knife still and pull the fire steel towards you briskly do it a couple times and you will see where the sparks are going to go. Take matches and a lighter because using a fire steel in the cold and dark when your tired blows big time. Good broke in boots and socks are important too. For packs I'd just carry one you have for now, no reason to pack the whole house on your back until you get a little used to humping it in the woods.

For food, well take what you like and has decent calories to give you fuel to move by, some like mountain house or MRE's or even ramon noodles. I like a bit of peanut butter myself for some extra energy. Either carry your water in or get a lifestraw and some water purification tabs. Oh and paracord 101 uses for that stuff and its light. A decent head lamp and extra batteries comes in useful when trying to find the latrine in the dark too.
 
One thing I forgot is a good map of the area your going to, a compass, a knowledge of land navigation or an electric Gps, those can fail though so learn to use a topographic map. Always let someone know exactly where your gonna be and make sure your cell phone is charged. A decent small first aid kit is always needful too. Honestly I'd go to the nearest park with a cheap hammock and rainfly and just camp a few nights and see what works for you and what doesn't. A day or two in the woods and you will start to see what you want to take and what is useless weight. I've gone a week with a 1800cc pack with no problems. You tend to start counting ounces and pounds real quick so don't get too carried away cutting stuff loose, some things you don't use but if you need them and don't have them your screwed.
 
The first thing is what you already did: Ask for help :thumbup:

What is most important [to me] is knowledge. The second is practicing that knowledge to the point of proficiency.

Find the following books and articles on Amazon:

Bushcraft 101: A Field Guide to the Art of Wilderness Survival

Advanced Bushcraft: An Expert Field Guide to the Art of Wilderness Survival

and

A Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants: Eastern and central North America (Peterson Field Guides)

Will get you started.

On your packs, I prefer an internal frame pack because there's less discomfort where the frame contacts your body.

You can search Amazon for any pack in the "45-60L [liter] size and that should do well for 3-7 days in the field [depending on what you take with you].


And then as identified by Dave Canterbury, the "5 C's of Survivability"

1. [metal] container [I use a Stanley Adventure Camp Cook set 24oz Stainless Steel]
2. cutting tool [I take 3...USMC KABAR, folding pocket knife, fixed skinner blade]
3. cordage [I take about 200' of Paracord, a ball of jute twine and about 50 yards of 8lb mono fishing line]
4. cover [I have an old German pup tent but other things can be used]
5. Combustion [device] [I take 2 ferro rods, a lighter and a magnifying glass...and stuff to make char cloth]

Any good reflective tarp - mylar on one side, colored tarp on the other. Search Amazon for
"Extra Thick Double Sided Thermal Reflective Blanket 60" x 82" & 4 Stakes - Use As a Blanket, Ground Cover or Tarp"

and take the books I mentioned above [after you've read them several times each].

Take a notebook and pencil to document your trip - good and bad things that happened or what you've seen/noticed.

Start small - go a few days without the benefit of support vehicles. Learn what you needed versus what you didn't and adjust your equipment to reflect that.

Also get a good, personal 1st Aid kit. Doesn't have to be a thousand piece kit....just basics to start, add a pair of large bandannas to make slings or splint ties.
 
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How big are your packs? 1.8L is pretty little, on the other hand if you meant 1800CI then 30L should be a good start for overnights. with smaller packs, you tend to get a lot less forgiveness on overloading them, so I would keep that in mind. 50-60 gives you more room to pack stuff inside the bag, can be good, can be bad. I would try to get a pack in-store, so you can get help fitting it and try it with some weight. Some packs just don't work for some people. I think shoes and packs are often the most overlooked piece of gear as far as how critical they are. A bad pack will break you just as fast as bad boots.

Hammocks can be a great choice, but they are not for everyone. I would also look into the newer style inflatable insulated mats. they are much thicker, and can be far more comfortable than the old CCF or even a self-inflator, greater cost, but lighter and less bulky in a pack. A good night's sleep is going to make a lot of difference with you getting back out there, and with age, all those little twinges that a 16 year old walks off tend to hang around longer. Sleeping bags and blankets can be sorted out, easy since you are not hitting any arctic conditions.

Setting up a base-camp and doing day-loops is a great way to get back into the rhythm while lowering your overall carry weight, and keeping everyone at home informed of your progress.

Other things that will factor in are fire/or not as far as what you take, you preferences for water collection, and your level of "fiddle" that you can tolerate. some folks need set and forget gear, others can handle stuff that takes significant work. A beer can stove works really well, costs near nothing and weighs little. on the other hand there are a great many butane stoves that are light and relatively cheap, like the MSR pocketrocket. Cooking gear can be cheap stuff from a thrift shop, or titanium, again, start small and easy, and figure out what you want out of it. If a camp-fire and a canteen cup work for you, then go for it. For me where fire is almost always out of the question, I use a micro-rocket and a snowpeak Ti pot. its a more spendy option, but I use it quite often, and its perfect for my useage.

If you have something to cook in, something to eat with, something to sleep under, and a way to carry it, its well worth an attempt. For the sake of the folks at home, a good communication system might be well worth considering, depending on cell coverage. Spots have gotten pretty good, and have more communication options than an epirb, but there is something to be said for a "get me outta here" button, especially if there are others to think about.

I tend to overthink things and have been struggling with far too much crap in my pack, I recently had a 15kg (33lb) starting weight (before food or water) and I've trimmed it to 12kg(26lb), just by getting rid of a lot of little crap. I also have a few different considerations, and need to carry extra stuff. You should be able to get in well under that weight without much struggle.

One last thought, walking poles make a huge difference on the knees. I'm a pretty light guy, and don't have many joint problems, but it still makes a pretty big difference. Yeah they look silly, but at the end of the day, I'll take comfort over looks. besides, they are handy for proping up tarps, as well as other uses.
 
For me, proper clothing, sleeping bag, and knowledge of how to use a map and compass are high up there. I'm 47 and last fall did a 3 day trip through the presidentials of NH. I'll post a pic of my pack a list of the contents. It's all on Google Drive. Just too lazy now. My rig is primarily for multi day trips over rugged terrain where weight is a major factor.
I always bring a single knife and a multi-tool. Never brought axes and etc.
 
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It's not incredibly clear what you're trying to start.

Backpacking and "survival"/bushcraft are different.

IMO, it's more important to start with basic backpacking. Learn outdoor clothing, tents/tarps and stoves and cooking.

Recommend Chris Townsend's "Backpacker's Handbook". Really the best overview I know. Even better than "The Complete Walker".

Also recommend picking a stove to match your area and then make tea or coffee on it every day. Don't be dismissive of stoves. Most people don't understand them and couldn't reliably run one if their life depended on it. Practice. It's a skill - harder in some ways than fires.

Fires.... Can be fun in the right places but in many places with lots of traffic, like the Smokies, it may be either discouraged or banned.

Last recommendation... I suggest car camping with minimal kit like you might take backpacking. Just focus on tent/tarp set up and cooking and sleeping. Get all that of that stuff sorted out before heading into the woods.
 
Get a good tent, and a good sleeping pad!! Any of your old packs will do the trick until you figure out what YOU like in a pack.
Practice in the back yard, while sounding silly, can save you later sorting out issues like stoves, rain gear, dining flys. I have no doubt you can cook and know what you need to do so, so have at for short runs and what you learned at 16 will come flooding back.
 
go play in a park
go for a day hike
Go for a short walk and use these play skills

Need a stove buy sterno
need a pot, open our cupboard
Need to sleep take a spare blanket
Work boots are fine

Do not buy gear
do not buy gear
You have 99% of what you need in your cupboards

Gear does not make the man

(i used to teach inner-city ghetto kids, and all they took was what they had in their house)
 
Grease Pot, Super Cat Stove, CCF mat, the best sleeping bag you can afford, a decent tent, fleece pull over and hat, used external frame pack, synthetic layer (shirt and shorts at least, preferably socks and underwear too as cotton is not king in the woods), dry bag and a Hank of paracord for a Bear bag set, home made FAK, bic lighter, spork, mug, empty bottle, water treatment of some sort (smart water, Gatorade or similar are popular options for bottles). That's about it. You can start off very cheap still keeping the weight down and upgraded from there.

I can't recommend starting in a hammock as you need to worry about a tarp, under-quilt, top-quilt, and hammock. A tent will be cheaper and easier to start. Some backpackers have used a $20 Jr tent from Walmart to start out with, combined with an $8 foam mat and the sleeping bag of your choice (I recommend down if you can swing it) and you have a great budget shelter and sleep system. I would stay away from military surplus personally. In my experience it is poorly engineered. Ofen it will be heavy, overbuilt (not always a good thing), bulky, and not much cheaper than other options out there.

Oh and personally I stay away from boots, a pound on your feet = five on your back as they say. I've done all my recent hikes in Rebook Classics, hopefully I will be upgrading to a decent set of trail runners in the future.
 
+1 pinnah's post above. Great advice.

Agree with car camping with basic equipment first to get the feel of tents, stoves, fuel, and etc, then progress to easy over-night backpacking. Once you start hiking with weight, you'll be surprised how quickly you start to shed unneeded items.
FWIW, here is the gear list for the last group hike I organized. most of it is stuff you probably already have as a previous posted suggested. I highlighted the things I kinda feel most important about. Bigger ticket ($) items are tent / sleeping bag / backpack / stove. On trips like that, group gear is shared so not all of this stuff goes into one person's pack.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hge1sq8-dpkRaEJpCEKYziN0u8C-JCmPnbKUpP0XPDw/edit?usp=sharing

And pics.



 
Thanks for the input so far, all.

I'm looking at starting with car camping to shake things down, potentially meeting some friends in the Smokys for some car-based camping that would be a base camp for trout fishing expeditions up further in. Eventually this would get the spousal unit (who's very much a city mouse) to try it at least once or twice, so I will probably need a 4 person tent her comfort. There is an REI locally, and I may start perusing their closeouts for a tent and sleeping bags.

For packs, I checked again, and I was incorrect. My largest pack is about 1650 ci, just under 30L. No frame. I did get fitted at REI into an Osprey Atmos 65. It felt amazing compared to the other packs I tried, but at $260 it's going to have to wait until I have a couple of trips under my belt.

I have a couple of stoves - a few soda can alcohol stoves I've made, a Primus Yellowstone Classic trail stove, and a Core 4 wood gas stove I've got on the way. I play with these stoves frequently in different weather conditions to test them by making my morning tea (coffee is black death). I'm confident in my ability to heat water and cook some small things in camp. Fire making is a bit different story. I have a lot to learn about proper fire making techniques. I've messed with fatwood, feather sticks, and ferro rods. I've had some success, but have just as often resorted to a Bic and a vaseline-soaked cotton ball for the backyard firepit.

Please keep the ideas coming. This has been very helpful thus far.
 
59Bassman said:
my morning tea (coffee is black death).
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Sutherland_Blasphemer_1575.jpg




LOL....but anyway


59Bassman said:
Thanks for the input so far, all.

I'm looking at starting with car camping to shake things down, potentially meeting some friends in the Smokys for some car-based camping that would be a base camp for trout fishing expeditions up further in. Eventually this would get the spousal unit (who's very much a city mouse) to try it at least once or twice, so I will probably need a 4 person tent her comfort. There is an REI locally, and I may start perusing their closeouts for a tent and sleeping bags.

For packs, I checked again, and I was incorrect. My largest pack is about 1650 ci, just under 30L. No frame. I did get fitted at REI into an Osprey Atmos 65. It felt amazing compared to the other packs I tried, but at $260 it's going to have to wait until I have a couple of trips under my belt.

I have a couple of stoves - a few soda can alcohol stoves I've made, a Primus Yellowstone Classic trail stove, and a Core 4 wood gas stove I've got on the way. I play with these stoves frequently in different weather conditions to test them by making my morning tea (coffee is black death). I'm confident in my ability to heat water and cook some small things in camp. Fire making is a bit different story. I have a lot to learn about proper fire making techniques. I've messed with fatwood, feather sticks, and ferro rods. I've had some success, but have just as often resorted to a Bic and a vaseline-soaked cotton ball for the backyard firepit.

Please keep the ideas coming. This has been very helpful thus far.
Click to expand...

I'm going to suggest going on to Amazon and looking up more reasonably priced packs. According to the REI website, the Osprey Atmos 65 is no longer available...looks like a discontinued model. Be wary of getting ripped off with "old" models. Look up any pack on Amazon at "65L" [Liters] in the description. That's the approximate size of the one you tried out.

I would suggest watching the following YouTube channels:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfa-XVztQrDlf-2v1UUdkwg

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBB4HUmgkIagmY56KpkBdvg

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2TXg45Dbt2de8auakllW8g

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ1R6DwrVcT9bRerP5BZaOA

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS4LBgyn1WLSojiQI4aPjtg

Those are some of my favorites and I'm sure there are more / better channels to watch...but intently studying what they show will help you greatly.
 
You're on the right path.

For car camping with the spouse, inexpensive family camping tents like those from Coleman or Ozark Trails available at most big box *marts do remarkably well. Look for factory sealed seams on the fly and also get a large "blue" tarp in the 10x12 range to pitch over the tent for long rains and you should be all set for minimal cash outlay.

Excellent work on the stove use. It will pay dividends when it's raining, you're wife is in the tent and you can say, "I got this."

On larger packs, I would recommend trying to borrow or buy used till you can figure out how big of a pack you need. My preference is to have a pack to carry the biggest load I anticipate. I would rather carry a big pack with a small load than to over stuff a small pack and croak the suspension.
 
pinnah said:
On larger packs, I would recommend trying to borrow or buy used till you can figure out how big of a pack you need. My preference is to have a pack to carry the biggest load I anticipate. I would rather carry a big pack with a small load than to over stuff a small pack and croak the suspension.
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Agreed but I differ in only one aspect - I subscribe to the individual not carrying more than 20-22% of their body weight. The pack size should reflect that but for me [at 230 lbs] the 65L is like the 'perfect" size for me.
 
For car camp, little beats the Colman 2 burner Propane stove. Still little has been said about sleeping gear. A self inflating pad(I use an "old man" model) is a must! Comfort at night makes the day much better and if your wife comes along and isn't comfy she'll never go again. There are many Cots to choose from.
 
Don't look past the REI gear, from what I hear its good value.
Sounds like you are on the right track more or less. None of us got here all in one shot, and everyone walks their own walk. Its always a progression. Trade time for money, look for deals, and swap meets. Like buying cars, let someone else pay the deprecation. Outdoorgearlab has some really well written reviews.

Pack size is pretty personal, I use a 70L since it makes it easier to carry bulky items, and I can then tighten it up, rather than mashing everything and over-stuffing, but I like everything inside. You could probably get my normal load into a 50l pack. But when I'm out on a walk I have to have options, one of those is taking on a bit of extra weight or bulk, since there is always the possibility of needing to share someone's load. (I work with kids, things happen) and I'd rather have a tanky pack with options than have a very efficient system that has a narrow performance envelope. If I was going totally solo, different story.
keep practicing, and get out there, that's the important part.
 
mewolf1 said:
For car camp, little beats the Colman 2 burner Propane stove. Still little has been said about sleeping gear. A self inflating pad(I use an "old man" model) is a must! Comfort at night makes the day much better and if your wife comes along and isn't comfy she'll never go again. There are many Cots to choose from.
Click to expand...

I wish I could get my wife to come along, of course then we'd probably both be miserable lol. You make a good point with the mat. I recommend starting with a blue foam mat only because they are cheap, and if you aren't a side sleeper they're not so bad. Another more comfortable option is an air mattress. The Klymit Static V and NeoAir Venture are two budget minded options. I have the NeoAir Venture and it certainly give a much better nights sleep than my old foam mat. At this point I have only slept 3 nights on it. I like the pack size and the comfort so far. I also just picked up a new bag to shed some pounds. I went with a Kelty Cosmic Down that is much smaller, lighter, and lofts better than my old synthetic bag ever did. Both are far from the best, but they are what I could afford and both are from reputable companies.

17395577161_0748207b6b_h.jpg


To the OP I would definitely invest in sleep gear that can work for both car and dispursed camping. You may want a bigger tent when car camping, and as others pointed out it can be cheap and heavy, but IMO there is no point having two sets of sleep gear.
 
You can rent to try out stuff. One of the guys on that trip rented his bag, sleeping pad, and backpack from EMS for short $$. He is not a hiker and had nothing. A great way to try out real good equipment.

+1 on the REI gear. Great stuff for good prices.
+1 on coleman bags and tents and etc for car camping. If you like it you can always invest in more expensive and lighter equipment later if you decide to get more into backpacking or multi day trips w/o a vehicle. Plus an extra sleeping bag or tent is always a good thing to have on hand.

I always wanted to love inflatable mattresses and I just couldn't. I simply never had good experiences with them and I tried for years. I think I have 3 or 4 in my basement that my wife and I used at various points. For me, they were more hassle than they were worth. I was forever submerging the things in my bathtub to try to find and patch microscopic holes that developed because I laid my tent on a stoopid twig I never noticed or something. I felt like I was always adding more air at night because they would magically lose a little here and there. I gave up in lieu of a simple pad that I never have to worry about. Look at my rig above... Now, think about lunch on top of a mountain after you've been climbing for 5 hours. No one is going to open and inflate a pad just to sit on rocks for a sandwich or whatever. With the pad, you unstrap it. Lay it down. Plenty of room for you and a buddy and it packs up again in about 10 seconds.
 
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