Whetstone quality

B

Barmaley

Joined
Dec 31, 2016
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I realized that I miss refinement of my edges by focusing on course stones. There are many options for 1000-8000 stones from very cheap to most expensive. How two stones may differ provided that are of the same grit? Is it just the speed of cutting or there are other parameters which make their performance different?

It seems that there are 3 options: a) diamond plate - the best in my experience but does not last and expensive. b) sintered ceramic - for some reason not the most popular. c) Man made SiC or AlO which is hard to find in oil version (majority uses water which I personally do not like).

I think I need a stone in 1000-1500 range, one in 1800-2500 and one in 6000-8000.'

I never had stones of high grid, and I would like to know what to expect to hopefully make the right purchase on the first try. So - what makes stones different and why prices differ so much for the same grit and the same material?
 
What sort of steels are you sharpening?

For supersteels with hard carbides, best to stick to diamond or CBN. Spyderco's double-sided CBN plate is nice.

For more ordinary steel, the oil restricts your options considerably. There are the hardware store combo oil stones (Norton and the like), and Arkansas and Washita. And probably others I am not thinking of.
 
All the knives I care about are kitchen knives. I got few knives of VG10, then Global and then several knives of X60 Cr Mo V15 by Henckels and several other makers. In addition during Pandemic a few very cheap Chinese chef knives on Amazon (like $7 delivered) to practice sharpening technique and end up loving some of then since they perform much better than I expected (just a note on a side that one of those cheap knives which I bought to practice sharpening came so incredibly sharp (much sharper than 10 times more expensive Henckels when whey were just bought) that I was heavily using it on a kitchen for more than a month before I decided to try to work on its edge). Obviously the steel of those Chinese knives is a mystery.

For my M390 chef knife I successfully use Sharpal 325/1200 diamond plate and I reserved the plate for this knife. According to Dr. Vadim Kraichuk there is not benefit to sharpen supersteels to scarry sharp condition since they loose its sharpness at this state as fast as any other knives. So, I am concern about primarily VG10 and global knives which I use the most and one X60 Cr Mo V15 santoku which has extra comfortable handle.

I got some Arkansas stones and I love that they are oil stones but they cut too slow. That is why I am looking for suggestions on high grit oil stone if such things exist?
 
A coarse stone is good to have. But I understand that you are looking for higher grits, too.
I know some (very) fine oilstones. But I don't know how easily they are for you to order.

Kunsuto oilstones:
- https://www.dictum.com/en/kunsuto-ean/kunsuto-sharpening-oilstone-grit-2000-711195
- https://www.dictum.com/en/kunsuto-ean/kunsuto-honing-oilstone-grit-4000-711196
- https://www.dictum.com/en/kunsuto-ean/kunsuto-combination-oilstone-grit-20004000-711197
YouTube review:

Another brand is Zische (from Germany). There Missarka stones are usable with water or oil.
- Missarka 1200 and 3000 (JIS): https://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.html
They are sintered. And I know that you asked about oilstones. In my opinion they are different than other sintered ceramics like Spyderco or Fallkniven. The 3000 grit stone has a tactile feel / feedback that reminds me of a Hard Black Arkansas. But cuts much faster. Sharpens VG10 (for example) easily. I have a knife set made from VG10. They are very sharp.

Zische has other fine stones, that can be used with oil, too. Like the Misarka Blue https://www.amazon.de/MISSARKA®BLUE...1671031296&sr=8-2&language=en_GB&currency=EUR.

Or the combination stone 220/1000 JIS https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Sharpeni...5d-9260-b1fcc9fcc721&pd_rd_i=B00KZQIID0&psc=1.

I don't know if that helps.
 
Might consider a lot of inexpensive stropping options, for adding refinement and polish to knives. For the middle-of-the-road steels in kitchen cutlery, like VG-10 and and the Global & Henckels knives, a hard-backed denim strop with white rouge stick compound applied works very well. That was my favorite for a few of my kitchen knives. And the materials to put them together are dirt cheap or free (paint-stirring stick, old pair of jeans for free - and an $8 stick of compound would likely be the most expensive component, by far). The denim will hold a very dense application of the compound, which makes the strop work FAST on such steels, even for shaping or additional thinning of the blades. It's very aggressive in working toward a high-mirror (or near-mirror) finish.
 
I find sharpening Global knives painful and irritating. I don't know what it is about the steel they use, but it is not a happy experience to sharpen, at least for me. Sharpening on diamonds (stones, not plates) helps me with that. Same for cheap stainless steel.
 
I think nearly all of the middle-ground or inexpensive kitchen knives I've sharpened have all been in severe need of thinning behind the edge - a LOT of thinning. I could never get them to cut well until I'd taken care of that. This especially includes the really cheap ones. Part of that thinning work I think also removed some weak steel behind the edge, probably heat-damaged from factory grinding. Seems like the edges were much too flimsy early on, until I'd removed some of that steel.

Having said that, one of my favorite users in the kitchen now is a small Farberware santoku I picked up at Walmart years ago for about $8 or so. It's one of those that I thinned first (I think I used sandpaper on hard backing) and then thinned & polished some more on the denim & white rouge strop I mentioned previously. It's a great slicer now.

I did splurge on one 8" Victorinox chef knife, however. I haven't done a thing to that one, aside from some very, very light steeling. The primary grind & edge geometry on that knife were beautifully thin, straight from the factory, with a hair-popping factory-sharpened edge.
 
@ P Papilio

Thank you very much for your links. First I need to say that it does not seem that those stones are available in the USA. In addition in the video the guy who review the stones suggest that the grid is similar to about 1000 grid and that the stones cut slow. On the positive side they last longer.

For 1000 grid I guys is possible to use sintered ceramic stones line Spiderco. I am not sure how high I need to go for the kitchen knives in stone grid to make practical sense? I never polished my edges to mirror finish yet and it is hard at this point to judge if I really will benefit if I do. But it is a vicious circle: to get that finish to test the performance I need to get a high grit stone. At the same time it is hard to decide which stone to buy since I do not know what I need. LOL.
 
Barmaley said:
I realized that I miss refinement of my edges by focusing on course stones. There are many options for 1000-8000 stones from very cheap to most expensive. How two stones may differ provided that are of the same grit? Is it just the speed of cutting or there are other parameters which make their performance different?

It seems that there are 3 options: a) diamond plate - the best in my experience but does not last and expensive. b) sintered ceramic - for some reason not the most popular. c) Man made SiC or AlO which is hard to find in oil version (majority uses water which I personally do not like).

I think I need a stone in 1000-1500 range, one in 1800-2500 and one in 6000-8000.'

I never had stones of high grid, and I would like to know what to expect to hopefully make the right purchase on the first try. So - what makes stones different and why prices differ so much for the same grit and the same material?
Click to expand...
Do you have a Norton fine India?
 
Barmaley said:
But it is a vicious circle: to get that finish to test the performance I need to get a high grit stone.
Click to expand...
Not true. You could use wet/dry sandpaper on glass, just to name one option, or buffing wheels or a fine belt sander or leather stropping belt if you were willing to use power equipment.

Or, you could hire one of the forum’s service providers to mirror polish your existing blade.

These may not be optimal for you, and they might tempt you down their own rabbit holes, but gambling on a stone to do what you’ve never done before is not your only choice.

Parker
 
Many factors influence the performance of sharpening stones. Abrasive type, grade, size, binder, bond strength, grit/bond ratio, pressure used during molding, grit protrusion, kind of lubrication used, etc. On the technique side there's stuff like the pressure used during sharpening, edge leading vs. edge trailing strokes, and so on and so forth.
 
Barmaley said:
I have a NortonCrystolon and in another thread here on the forums I was told that India is about the same. It is true?
Click to expand...
It's all a matter of perspective but they are very different stones.

The fine India is just labeled as a fine stone as that is all that it really is being hard enough that it doesn't necessary shed grit like a water stone, it acts more like a natural in that the the finish will be dependent on the surface condition of the stone and the pressure used. If you search hard enough you might even find a grit rating for the stone, but it has very little to do with how the stone performs. If there is fault with the stone it's that it has a tendency to glaze.

I find it plenty fine for European kitchen knifes, where as the vg-10 can take a finer edge, with the softer stainless it's just a waste of time to me but I encourage you to try it and form your own opinions.
 
Barmaley said:
@ P Papilio

Thank you very much for your links. First I need to say that it does not seem that those stones are available in the USA. In addition in the video the guy who review the stones suggest that the grid is similar to about 1000 grid and that the stones cut slow. On the positive side they last longer.

For 1000 grid I guys is possible to use sintered ceramic stones line Spiderco. I am not sure how high I need to go for the kitchen knives in stone grid to make practical sense? I never polished my edges to mirror finish yet and it is hard at this point to judge if I really will benefit if I do. But it is a vicious circle: to get that finish to test the performance I need to get a high grit stone. At the same time it is hard to decide which stone to buy since I do not know what I need. LOL.
Click to expand...
You are welcome. Dictum seems to ship to the USA. But if that's worth the shipping costs?
Spyderco ceramics work well after an India stone. For softer steels like European kitchen knives (from Solingen for example) evene the Medium stone could be more than enough. Shaving armhairs is not a problem. The Fine stone leaves a little more refined / polished edge. I prefer a more polished edge, especially with harder steels like VG-10. Better (push) cutting performance imho.

One word about the India. The given grit seems to be quite coarse. After a break-in-time the stone performs much likely a lot finer than you think. But I don't see it near the 1.000 grit range.
 
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