Whetstones. Am I missing something here?

[emjay]

Good day all.

Been sharpening my knives on oilstones, diamond stones and sandpaper for years. This includes both freehand sharpening and guided systems. I can get a hair shaving sharp edge on any of these methods with little effort.

Recently, I wanted to try out whetstones, so I did a lot of research and settled on a Suehiro New Cerax 800 whetstone. I like my edges a bit toothy, hence getting the 800 grit. I read mostly good things about the Cerax lineup, so I believe it is a good stone. I soaked it adequately and tried it on a Victorinox knife that I usually have no trouble in getting a hair shaving edge on using my other methods and I just could not get a good edge on this Cerax stone. It's sharp. It slices paper all right, but not as crisply as after using my other methods, and it doesn't shave hair, even after stropping on leather. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I do raise a burr and try to refine it. I've tried sharpening it multiple times using different strokes and pressure, but still end up with the same somewhat sharp edge. Is it my technique or the stone? I clean the stone often during use, splashing water over it and use the nagura often. My thinking is that the mud slurry is hitting the apex of the edge on the push stroke and dulling it ever so slightly. Perhaps I should only use a pull stroke?

Also, the general idea is that whetstones are less messy than oilstones. After using this Cerax, I do not agree. I used the base it came with and muddy water got splashed everywhere. I can imagine that a bigger water bath would be less messy, but even so, once you're done, there is muddy water and mud to deal with and wash off everything. Seems like a bit more clean up is needed after using a whetstone compared to an oilstone in my opinion, and just generally a bit more of a pain to use and maintain.

Would be keen to hear your thoughts.

 

[Ourorboros]

You mean "water stones". All your stones are whetstones, whet meaning "sharpen".
Water stones are in a spectrum of soft and muddy to hard, with little or no "mud". There is a variety of feel and mess.

Anyways, on the original subject, a muddy stone is highlighting your errors. You're just not used to it, having spent a lifetime on hard stones. On a Shapton or Naniwa Pro you would have probably gotten different results.

 

[emjay]

You mean "water stones". All your stones are whetstones, whet meaning "sharpen".
Water stones are in a spectrum of soft and muddy to hard, with little or no "mud". There is a variety of feel and mess.

Anyways, on the original subject, a muddy stone is highlighting your errors. You're just not used to it, having spent a lifetime on hard stones. On a Shapton or Naniwa Pro you would have probably gotten different results.

Understood. So then my thinking now is that on a soft stone like this Cerax, I should raise the burr with a push and pull stroke (edge leading and trailing, respectively), and then once raised, refine the burr with only a pull stroke. At least that method will not cause the apex to crash into the mud slurry as it would with an edge leading stroke, thus not dulling it slightly.

 

[UncleBoots]

Understood. So then my thinking now is that on a soft stone like this Cerax, I should raise the burr with a push and pull stroke (edge leading and trailing, respectively), and then once raised, refine the burr with only a pull stroke. At least that method will not cause the apex to crash into the mud slurry as it would with an edge leading stroke, thus not dulling it slightly.

Mud is great for helping the cutting action, not so great for getting a crisp edge in finishing. Try rinsing off the mud before your final refinement of the edge with edge-leading strokes.

 

[helobite]

The Suehiro New Cerax #800 grit stone removes material very effectively, as it quickly creates a paste during sharpening to help, thus making the process easier. This coarse stone used at the beginning of knife sharpening if the knife doesn't need any blade repair. With grit of #800 we can achieve sharpness even with medium-quality knives, as the stone removes steel very quickly and efficiently. The next step is to use Suehiro New Cerax #1500 or Suehiro New Cerax #3000 stone.

Suehiro Cerax - #800 [New Cerax series]

The Suehiro New Cerax #800 grit stone removes material very effectively, as it quickly creates a paste during sharpening to help, thus making the process easier. This coarse stone used at the beginning of knife sharpening if the knife doesn't need any blade repair. With a grit of #800 we can...

sharpedgeshop.com

I cannot imagine that "paste" is good for the edge, other than removing material faster. I cannot get my edges as keen on water stones as my red India. For these extra hard modern steels, I start off with a diamond stone, and just break the burr with an India

I suppose I could use an Arkansas or Washita for the final polishing of the edge,

because I am not really removing material. I remove material with the diamond stones.

Water stones, the edge is never as good, but it will cut. If I had a microscope, I believe I would see edge damage due to the paste that is created with a water stone.

 

[Wandering_About]

Understood. So then my thinking now is that on a soft stone like this Cerax, I should raise the burr with a push and pull stroke (edge leading and trailing, respectively), and then once raised, refine the burr with only a pull stroke. At least that method will not cause the apex to crash into the mud slurry as it would with an edge leading stroke, thus not dulling it slightly.

I agree, if there's any significant mud on the stone, edge trailing will work better. Otherwise you're pushing the edge straight into a slurry of abrasive. In general it will probably take you a while to get used to the stone, a water stone like the Cerax is a very different experience than a plated diamond stone. I don't use any oil stones so can't compare there. I don't have the 800 Cerax, but both my 320 and 1000 also needed levelling right out of the box. They weren't bad but might be something for you to try. The Cerax stones aren't my favorite ones in the world but I'm pleased with them for the price. Usually I prefer "splash and go" stones instead of soaking stones.

The best thing to do for a water stone is to get a sink bridge. It makes using water stones a breeze because you do the whole process right there in the sink, where any mess is contained and easy to clean up.

 

[emjay]

Suehiro Cerax - #800 [New Cerax series]

The Suehiro New Cerax #800 grit stone removes material very effectively, as it quickly creates a paste during sharpening to help, thus making the process easier. This coarse stone used at the beginning of knife sharpening if the knife doesn't need any blade repair. With a grit of #800 we can...

sharpedgeshop.com

I cannot imagine that "paste" is good for the edge, other than removing material faster. I cannot get my edges as keen on water stones as my red India. For these extra hard modern steels, I start off with a diamond stone, and just break the burr with an India

I suppose I could use an Arkansas or Washita for the final polishing of the edge,

because I am not really removing material. I remove material with the diamond stones.

Water stones, the edge is never as good, but it will cut. If I had a microscope, I believe I would see edge damage due to the paste that is created with a water stone.

Agreed. My knife will certainly cut after being worked on the Cerax. It is definitely sharper than the average kitchen knife one would find in an average person's house, but it is not up to my standard. My edges need to shave, otherwise I don't consider them sharp. I've actually gotten a better edge off a cheap hardware store no-name brand aluminum oxide oilstone than the Cerax.

 

[emjay]

I agree, if there's any significant mud on the stone, edge trailing will work better. Otherwise you're pushing the edge straight into a slurry of abrasive. In general it will probably take you a while to get used to the stone, a water stone like the Cerax is a very different experience than a plated diamond stone. I don't use any oil stones so can't compare there. I don't have the 800 Cerax, but both my 320 and 1000 also needed levelling right out of the box. They weren't bad but might be something for you to try. The Cerax stones aren't my favorite ones in the world but I'm pleased with them for the price. Usually I prefer "splash and go" stones instead of soaking stones.

The best thing to do for a water stone is to get a sink bridge. It makes using water stones a breeze because you do the whole process right there in the sink, where any mess is contained and easy to clean up.

The stone was level out the box. Not anymore though. It has visible dishing after using it a few times now. I think this Cerax has put me off water stones, especially soakers. Too messy for my liking.

 

[311climber]

The stone was level out the box. Not anymore though. It has visible dishing after using it a few times now. I think this Cerax has put me off water stones, especially soakers. Too messy for my liking.

it takes awhile to get used to waterstones. i like you had about 3 of them and really didnt like how i was constantly dulling them from shaving sharp. it took a decent amount of practice as well i started using a sink bridge to keep water running on the stones the whole time. taking it from 800 to lets say a 5k rika helped me get some sharpness back but they more just take time to get the technique and are less forgiving when your hand doesnt retain the same angle almost perfectly. usually they dont do well raising even a couple degrees even when people try to "remove a burr" they just do better with a one angle approach with my experience. i have about 8 soakers now but i do love me my resin bonded diamond stones and my splash and goes for the fact that a few light raised angle strokes let me remove the burr/micro bevel that you cant see to the eye.... keep at it im sure you can get your 800 to shave with some practice. also get rid of the slurry and keep it running under water.... seems to help for me

 

[Stockman]

It has visible dishing after using it a few times now.

Noticeable dishing after a couple of uses might indicate that too much pressure is being used??
As soon as a bur is raised on one side then the other, try as mentioned above by Uncle Boots, rinse off the slurry and just use very light edge leading alternating strokes until burr is totally gone.
I personally don't use soakers, too much time and mess - a quality splash and go, I use a Shapton Pro 1000 ( about 800 grit ) and can get this one stone to shave, slice thin paper and paper towel in minutes.

 

[311climber]

if its dishing that fast it could be the 800 in general. i know some people swear certain stone binders are not up to par with stones really close in line with each other. definitely can be pressure though.... i have two cerax 1ks and the MD 100 which is an 1k as well and they dont dish super fast, but they cut decently fast. depends what your used to. coming from other stones or diamond plated stones it might look like their cutting slowly...patience is the key with soakers...probably why their more popular in the east and out here in the west we just grab a belt sander lol

 

[emjay]

Honestly I can't say I'm awfully keen on practicing more with this water stone. After trying yet again to get my knife shaving sharp with it, using gentle pressure and constantly washing the slurry off the stone with no luck, I gave up and resorted to my cheap silicon carbide oilstone to raise a good burr quickly, refined it a bit and then moved onto a well-worn piece of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper stuck to a piece of wood and finished off by stropping on a piece of leather with some green compound worked into it. This method got me a frighteningly sharp, crisp, consistent edge that could literally whittle hair and shave a clean patch on my arm in one swipe.

I'm not writing off water stones though, just soft ones that require soaking. Will look at getting some Shapton Glass stones one day. However, if I can get hair-whittling edges on cheap oilstones, sandpaper and an old leather belt, is a set of Shaptons even worth it? We all want nice things I guess...

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Honestly I can't say I'm awfully keen on practicing more with this water stone. After trying yet again to get my knife shaving sharp with it, using gentle pressure and constantly washing the slurry off the stone with no luck, I gave up and resorted to my cheap silicon carbide oilstone to raise a good burr quickly, refined it a bit and then moved onto a well-worn piece of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper stuck to a piece of wood and finished off by stropping on a piece of leather with some green compound worked into it. This method got me a frighteningly sharp, crisp, consistent edge that could literally whittle hair and shave a clean patch on my arm in one swipe.

I'm not writing off water stones though, just soft ones that require soaking. Will look at getting some Shapton Glass stones one day. However, if I can get hair-whittling edges on cheap oilstones, sandpaper and an old leather belt, is a set of Shaptons even worth it? We all want nice things I guess...

My sharpening philosophy runs along the same lines. I don't have anything against trying many different tools - IF one can afford them all. That is what restrains me the most. But there's a lot to be gained in seeing how far you can go with the simple, inexpensive options available. I used to have a pretty strong bias against 'cheap' stones and such. But I've since learned it's more about figuring out how they're best used, regarding touch, technique, appropriate matching of stone type to steel, etc.

And it's also worthwhile to circle back around after after gaining more experience and skills, and see if the same old tools that didn't work before are suddenly more effective now in hands that've acquired more of the touch for them. The hands learn the touch, sometimes even when the conscious mind isn't aware of it - it comes as a surpise. Everything starts to work better when that starts happening.