Which do you Prefer to Use First, A KICK or a PUNCH

S

stdalire

Joined
Sep 8, 1999
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While you are in a situation where a combat cannot be abated anymore, which do you prefer to throw first on to the opponents, your kicks or your punches and why do you do that. Or you just wait him first to strike you.

For my answers, I'll give it later.

Thanks.
 
Stdalire,

In my younger spritely salad days, I liked to use a kick. I always kept a certain distance from a possible opponent. When the fight went down, I liked to fake a high punch and cover the distance with waist high or below kick. I generally followed up with a barrage of punches once the distance was covered and that would be it. The response to the fake also gave an indication of where the guy's skills were. I had also used low kicks on rushing guys but I kept my eyes up to hide the kick. When the guy backed up from the kick, he was then thinking about my feet. I would fake the feet and go in with hands. Again, once in a barrage of punches. If the guy didn't get backed with the kick and tried to run through it (rare), I still ended up with a barrage of punches. On a few occaisons I resorted to knees up close because the guy was bent over and covering his face.

Thinking about it I rarely threw more than one kick after the initial engagement. I had also dropped several opponents with just the kick.

Before the grapplers jump in. Let me just say grappling can and does happen. It's just that it didn't with me. I never had to grapple with an opponent because anywhere from 1 to 5 strikes usually ended the encounter. It's a scary thought though and why I do some mat work these days just in case.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Sing: You sound a lot like me! I like to fake to the head and then go low or vice versa depending on the situation.

I like elbows and knees up close, especially on big guys! Once you have them down to a reasonable level! Like you mentioned, everything has to be followed up. I find that most techniques don't stand alone and need a barrage/blitz afterwards.

Like I've said before, I don't like going to the ground so I try to avoid it. I work grappling too, but it's not my favorite. I've seen people get more damaged from rolling around on an asphalt parking lot than they did to each other!

Vince

------------------
Stay sharp and be Safe!
 
Now we are starting to go back to the beauty of basic strikes and what we use oftenly.

What I want to know more is, on our own judgement, shall we throw the first kick or punch not to wait anymore that the opponent will throw his first strike on us. Would it not complicate ourselves in litigation if we did strike first because we feel that there is an imminent harm from the opponent.

Would it not be better if we wait him first to strike us and we do counter strike to give us leverage in court if the fight gets complicated.

To my understanding to the posts, we should storm the opponent with either our kicks or punches the moment we are already in uncontrollable combat to put him outbalanced.

Sing, I like that procedure, if the opponent is being kicked and still coming, you still throw punches to him. Of course, there is no reason to grapple him as you will both end up to the ground rolling, whereas if you keep throwing punches it might stagger him to the ground.

Vince, using the elbow and knees for me is also effective especially on big guys, as we could deliver more energy on elbow jobs at a very closed range when about to grapple each other. I experienced that when we are already grappling to each other then we cannot throw punches anymore at an effective range, instead we resort of throwing the opponents using judo. My own style is if I am grappled, I side step and bend forward to hold of (grab) the feet opponent and forced to raised up so that I will be realeased. This way the opponent can easily fall at his back, for the feet on that situation is weak not fully grounded as his force is focus to his hands in grappling us with the intention to put us down. I don't know if this is a part of the new art of grappling as being mentioned in several thread. I have learned this technique from the street very long time ago.

Thanks,



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
Originally posted by stdalire:
Now we are starting to go back to the beauty of basic strikes and what we use oftenly.

What I want to know more is, on our own judgement, shall we throw the first kick or punch not to wait anymore that the opponent will throw his first strike on us. Would it not complicate ourselves in litigation if we did strike first because we feel that there is an imminent harm from the opponent.

Would it not be better if we wait him first to strike us and we do counter strike to give us leverage in court if the fight gets complicated.

To my understanding to the posts, we should storm the opponent with either our kicks or punches the moment we are already in uncontrollable combat put him outbalanced.
Click to expand...
Based on my training, I'd rather wait for the initial attack and respond correspondingly. The only way you could have a good counter-attack is being aware of your distancing all the the time. Then you either punch the attacking arm or leg. This usually outbalances both mentally and physically the aggressor...and depending on the result of your initial counter-offensive you literally explode with your techniques...
smile.gif
 
To me it would depend on the situation. Sometimes it's better to wait until the first punch/kick is thrown and go from there. Other times a "pre-emptive" strike is called for.

For instance, with a bigger guy, I really don't want him to connect on me. Sheer weight/power advantage is on his side.

It's just something your going to have to feel out. Sometimes one has to go with the flow.

Vince

------------------
Stay sharp and be Safe!
 
I think the topic will branch out to three categories:
1. Technique "as to which one we prefer most on the first strikes, is it punch or kicks to put us in good position.
2. Defense or Offense move "Shall we wait first and counter strike or the moment we sense that we are being hit then we storm the opponents already.
3. Legal Aspect "Shall we still think to be mitigated, justified or exempting to any legal liabilities if we do commense our strike or we just simply think to overpower the opponent.

I would appreciate much if we could addressed all the the three elements mentioned in order that we will be always in a win-win situation in any unexpected brawl or fight whatever that we need to defend ourselves. By the way, I am not referring in a tournament. I deal mostly on the actual scenario in the street.

Thanks
 
Stdalire,

A fight happens before the first punch is even thrown. You can sense it, feel the vibes... While some guys are intimidated by the vibes I put out to short a possible fight (I use minimal words in confrontations), others are not. You can see them inching for position, or they just rush, or throw the first punch...

Goes without saying it's important to maintain proper distancing. I am a small guy. I don't remember starting any of the fights I was in (selective memory...
smile.gif
), though I didn't always backed from them. Because I was not the aggressor, I didn't have any problems throwing the first strike if I thought the fight was going down whether I like it or not. All the guys I fought were bigger than me. And to be truthful, the "legality" of it was the last thing on my mind, if at all. I just want to get out of it in one piece.

I always figured if I ended up in court, I am going to play fearful. "Judge, jury, look at me. I am 5'3". Why the heck would I want to start a fight with that behemonth? I was really scared and just trying to defend myself. I just started punching and kicking to keep him from killing me!"

I will admit that strategy it's less like to work these days since I carry two knives all the time. If I were to use them, I better have witnesses or a better rationale.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Sing: You have shoot the bulls eye. You are really given 1 count justification in throwing the first punch or kick because you have an opponent bigger than you - all the time, as you've mentioned. That is a big reason that the judge will quash the physical injury case against you if you have pounded the giant enemy.

So, small guys like me too need not to worry much in initiating the first move if we sense we are really about to be beaten by a BG.

I remember when I had a Marine Basic Class for a few months and go AWOL, I am the smallest but I am one also among of the toughest and I am being pet "called house mouse" by the drill instructor. And during siesta hr. The officers are inviting me to demonstrate my karate and one of those WAR freak soldier made a flying kick to my breast and it was just like that. I cannot also return any punch or kicks for I am a trainee.

Now, let us put ourselves in a situation that although we are defending ourselves, if ever we are being solidly punched or kicked and it causes us to curl because of pain, or we have received mortal blows, how many of us now think to go on fighting to the last or do a retreat. Are we using our ego that we need to keep fighting win or loss or we just reatreat on that time and fight another time.

Please don't misunderstand me if I am mentioning the words, fight and brawl etc. My main intention is how do we react in a real scenario. The essense of MA discipline and ethics is always with me.

Thanks

 
Bhott said "Then you either punch the attacking arm or leg". This is one of the best move if you could hit. I had mention this move in some of my answers to other threads. If we could, we should punch the incoming feet if we could. This is good in a streeet fight, it is really effective, in tournament it is foul - but let us give more weight to the Practical way of defense.

By the way Bhott, after punching the incoming kicks, what is your next move, are you going to kick him also on the body or punch him on the face, temple or body.

In my own observation mostly if not all, every one is aiming the head to punch. Why???

Thanks

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
As a really cursory answer and not a hard and fast rule I prefer punch than knee or kick depending on the range. People are usually pretty quick to defend their facebut not so good at the lowline. If the punch doesn't connect the opponent is sometimes disctracted enough for you to easily land a kick.

Jason
 
stdalire,

What comes to my mind in commenting to your questions are: am I able to see it comming, and able to avoid it, or did I get sucked up in a black hole effect as to every body , all immediately around me, has started fighting, or did I piss someone off by inadvertently bumping into them in a crowded club.

In most cases where at some point I realized it was about to go down I have used kicks to set up the strikes, used kicks as a first strike as a stop kick to the shin or knees to break their forward momentum.

There were times that my hands were on the move before my game plan was set due to being spun around and, hey man you bumped into me you *** with fist drawn and clenched.

As to the legal aspect of all this I know that being in the wrong place at the wrong time is just not a good place to be in. And to be able not injure the BG when your forced into it.... His bad ! I'm not thinking about nothing but getting this done and over as fast as I can, what ever it takes. So in the process if he runs his face into my hand open or closed, he put it there for my taking.

I would like to be able to subdue the BG if at all possible, and if I knew I have some help from the peanut gallery. However such is not the case in most instances. Keyword here is like to. If he's on drugs or has a lot of alcohol in his system controlling them is near difficult to do without proper training.

Waiting for the BG to hit you first as to establish grounds for self defense is a bit risky, especially if the hit makes contact. Okay its now been established, but now you have to fight for your life to regain control which mean to me that the use force
has now been escalated to a high degree now and now the options and choices are few.

Should an ugly like this go to court, and it can because BG's wife can no longer depend on him for income beacuse you broke poor johnny up, and you went into overkill instead of just beating his azz. This is a sue crazy world we live in.

Matrial arts are given a very bad and nasty rap by those in the media. You dont hear nothing good they have to say, but let an martial artist get into an incident and see how they smear your name across the headlines

I think that all of us who are martial artist should at least at sometimes consider the impact of truley defending ourselves and the legal outcome of it. Hey gang its open season on us, know this.

Yes I have used my hands in a first strike, and before they began their strike in as to gain the edge which allowed me to subdue them without adding disabling injuries.

I have been to court and your involvemnet in your community will either help you in your defense or tie a knot around the rope thats going to take you down. We all know that things can happen even to the best of us.

So for now..... Peace Out..

 
Originally posted by stdalire:
Bhott said "Then you either punch the attacking arm or leg". This is one of the best move if you could hit. I had mention this move in some of my answers to other threads. If we could, we should punch the incoming feet if we could. This is good in a streeet fight, it is really effective, in tournament it is foul - but let us give more weight to the Practical way of defense.

By the way Bhott, after punching the incoming kicks, what is your next move, are you going to kick him also on the body or punch him on the face, temple or body.

In my own observation mostly if not all, every one is aiming the head to punch. Why???

Thanks

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-23-2000).]
Click to expand...

I usually aim to the nearest limb, whatever is available at the moment; my target are usually the soft tissues and muscles and i seldom hit the head since there are better targets. Anything along the centerline could be a target. To hit the bony parts of the body is inviting damage to yourself. These hits are usually aim to distract the aggressor so you could do you do your finishing moves; i.e., throws or maybe just to give you time to run away and fight another day...
smile.gif

 
I thinking aiming for the head is not bad idea because there are guys out there who can really take shots to the body because they're athletes or just darn big. You can't condition the face or neck area. So they are going to feel that.

Problem is that they expect a head shot and are ready to defend. That's why high-low, low-high. Going low, I take shots at the knees/shins/outer thigh with shoes. I also aim for the groin. This is another area guys will try to defend but in doing it, most unskilled fighters will leave open the head temporarily. In closer, I have taken shots at the solar plex area. Some can take it but a lot can't. Another area hard to condition. Again, for a striker, the trick is too mix it up to create openings. But the finishers tend to be towards the head in my experience.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
SlayerPlayer said: [Waiting for the BG to hit you first as to establish grounds for self defense is a bit risky, especially if the hit makes contact.] Good analysis slayer, but the truth for me is, it really makes me think twice if I hit a BG first or wait him to attack me and I do counter attack to make it appear that I was really provoked to fight by him. My point is I can claim who started the fight and I can say, I was attacked so I defend myself and in so doing I used my martial arts. As you said [...This is a sue crazy world we live in.] this is the real fact.

Also, I can add that why martial arts player are being seen as trouble maker especially if they are seen practicing. To the MA's they understand but to the anti's they don't.

bhott has a point if the opponent is not that much muscular built or sporty, he can bit on the limb or in some soft areas. That is fine if you will be in trouble in an environment like here in the middle east to avoid mark which is against the law here.

But sing analysis is right also, that the head and neck are better target because they are the areas where you can't condition and more fragile.

There are really lot to learn in the MA world and I am continue learning them from everyone to have a greater survivability in a hostile environment.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-24-2000).]
 
I allow the other person to close and attack first, I am waiting for this attack and when it comes I attempt a grapple/block (combo kenpo speed block and aikido lock), pull my oponent off balance (aikido), and then do whatever finishing move is required (i.e. jusitu neck lock, joint or miridian strikes etc.)

------------------
Sanity is overrated, simply a moonbeam spilling pearls on a dark and treacherous sea.
j . p hissom
 
stdalire,

Although I agree that it wise to let the BG make the first crack at you, and then you can begin your defense. However my training says that there are three times to counter a strike. Before, during and after the attack.

In my strategy, I've already made a decision as to determine whether or not I am able to advoid thus the before, or realize that in that split second the BG gives me the hostile look of bad intent and flinches, THWAP, thus another before.

Most of the time its a mere questions as to the timing and distance of the other two which will determine what choices of techniques that I use in response. In my expereince if you wait for the other two options your chances of succes in defeating, subduing or beating the BG are greatly dimenished by your decision.

Now if your sure about yourself, and feel you are capable of handling the BG, then making the first strike would be like taking candy from a baby, its too easy and would not present itself a challenge to overcome this individual. No matter the size.

Half of the fight is to me really about how confident we are of ourselves in the execution of our skills, and how well we can bring control to a chaotic situation, then to prove the superior fighter by not permantely injurying the BG too bad. This is the mark of a professional, or a master. Hell, on a higher level make a friend out of the BG. May be not in that moment, but as the BG reflects and realizes he truley compromised himself and was lucky to get off with only a few bruises, and busted ribs.

Comments on about going to the head, pull the plug and the lights go out. Like I stated above whats your comfort zone do you feel you can handle this. Will the propper and effective training techniques come into play, hope so, or know so.

As to making claims who started it first is very important, and having witness attest to that fact is equaly of importance. Keywords here is witness that will take time off from work in your behalf, to appear in your defense.

Tough call ehh, Okay your dancing with the devil, at what point do you deploy your knife. Before, during, or after... Keyword here is deploy. Or should this be a new thread ?

Stay sharp....Peace out...... Slayer
 
stdalire,

Although I agree that it wise to let the BG make the first crack at you, and then you can begin your defense. However my training says that there are three times to counter a strike. Before, during and after the attack.

In my strategy, I've already made a decision as to determine whether or not I am able to advoid thus the before, or realize that in that split second the BG gives me the hostile look of bad intent and flinches, THWAP, thus another before.

Most of the time its a mere questions as to the timing and distance of the other two which will determine what choices of techniques that I use in response. In my expereince if you wait for the other two options your chances of succes in defeating, subduing or beating the BG are greatly dimenished by your decision.

Now if your sure about yourself, and feel you are capable of handling the BG, then making the first strike would be like taking candy from a baby, its too easy and would not present itself a challenge to overcome this individual. No matter the size.

Half of the fight is to me really about how confident we are of ourselves in the execution of our skills, and how well we can bring control to a chaotic situation, then to prove the superior fighter by not permantely injurying the BG too bad. This is the mark of a professional, or a master. Hell, on a higher level make a friend out of the BG. May be not in that moment, but as the BG reflects and realizes he truley compromised himself and was lucky to get off with only a few bruises, and busted ribs.

Comments on about going to the head, pull the plug and the lights go out. Like I stated above whats your comfort zone do you feel you can handle this. Will the propper and effective training techniques come into play, hope so, or know so.

As to making claims who started it first is very important, and having witness attest to that fact is equaly of importance. Keywords here is witness that will take time off from work in your behalf, to appear in your defense.

Tough call ehh, Okay your dancing with the devil, at what point do you deploy your knife. Before, during, or after... Keyword here is deploy. Or should this be a new thread ?

Stay sharp....Peace out...... Slayer
 
In all my confrontations I did the following:

When I was a freshman college, I had a classmates who is atoughy guy also, from Olongapo, a man that he is used to foreign culture and even he is a Filipino he looks his fellow Filipino inferior. For we cannot agree on several matters we agreed to settle in barehand fight. We agreed to close the door of one of the college room and we could freely fight each other. This type of a fight is a "Sport One". We have another guy as a watcher too inside the room.

We did fight to the finish that after we got tired we agreed again that shall we continue for what?

On this story, both of us suffered cuts and black marks but became friend and no more further fight and came back to school the following morning as if nothing had happened. But how many people are like this.

The question is who strike first, I can't remember but when someone is about to throw a punch or kick there is the tendency to counter punch or counter kick or at the same time both fighters fist or feet being thrown at the same time.

An adult fight I had is against a pusher. I am confronting him and he immediately throw a punch to me, but I was so fast to evade with the help of my open palm parry and I simultaneously hit him to his Jaw and to his ribs. Because he is taller he grab me and tried to put me down so, we grappled, I did hooked his feet and give him a hip throw, he fell down but before he can recover, I storm him several kicks while he is on the ground. But still you cannot control an opponent on the ground permamently, for he can still get up not unless you lock him on the ground, but in real brawl, you don't lock like in Judo for what? the tendency is to keep pounding him and how powerful and effective the punches and kicks to immobilize him is another story again. But I observe, if you are were able to get up and your opponent is still on the ground and you could continue storming him kicks and punches that he cannot stand, you will have all the advantages. The fight was stop only when someone come to me holding my waist to break us for they saw my bowie knife which is on my waist. But the truth is I have no intention to use the knife for that situation but just a reservation if the pusher has companions to help him.

So, most of the time I am counter offensive, and I never land the first strike if the fight is only using barehand and feet.

It does not necessarily mean I will let myself being strike first, because once an aggressor is about to strike me, I believe I can evade/deflect/block an incoming 1st strike or the moment he attempt to hit me, I can already deliver my counter punch or kick.

Just like when somebody tried to kick me, I have done it twice already (I might have just lucky to do it but will still do it if I can), when a person is about to kick me, I kicked his incoming feet before he can raise it 6 inches above the ground, that way he will be stumbled. I will not see his face but his feet. I will not see a person fist but his shoulder.

A person who is running in to hit you, if you have a proper distance and able to land a good side kick to his abdomen for sure he will be stoped.

Most of the time I used my hand in hitting an opponent and I only deliver my strike upon countering or deflecting an incoming punches. Maybe I was trained to be like that or I am just defensive.

Slayer Player, I haven't been in a point that I planned to use knife and when will I I deploy it. I think if using knife for there is no choice anymore, I will deploy before I will be hit by someone having a knife.
Like in holdups I was being a victim several times, that when there was knives poke on me, I reacted simultaneously and never think the legality of my moves for these are bad guys.

Thanks,


[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-26-2000).]
 
stdalire,

After reading yur post, thoughts flashed back upon me from the old days when we had neighborhood block fights. We would box and sometimes slap box to determine who was going to be the block champ.

Then once the winner was determined, you would box the next block, and the next block, and the next one too. Until there was only one. Well one day after meeting their one, we battled for over a good solid hour. Mind you no refeeres, no bell, no time keeper, no punch counter, nothing but a bunch of knuckles in my face that day.

We fought and drew quite a crowd of on lookers. I guess at some point and time we both realized that we were pretty banged up and neither of us was clearly winning, so we stopped fighting and shook hands. Later on we became the best of friends.

Most of my fight experience comes from the days of old. In days of recent my fight experience comes from being a bouncer in some interesting night clubs.

It is from those experineces that I draw from
when SHTF. I have not been in any proverbial knife fight, but I could tell ya about a hellva lot of stabbings and shivings. Hell some of them will make you want your knife in your hands at all times when faced with fighting. To have, or to have not, thats the
six million dollar question.

I wish I could say that I would wait for that first movement, but I have been to too many funerals wherein they didn't react fast enough. Senseless killings, but they happened. And forever impregnated in my mind.
Some where friends of mine.

No I don't go looking for action, nor do I put myself in surroundings like that, including nite clubs and bars. When I do go out with the lady, its ususally to a decent bar and grill.

Being a bi-racial couple we sometimes draw attention to ourselves if you get my drift. Most of the times we leave early instead of staying to enjoy ourselves because of the witching hour and beer muscles just don't go together.

So when some one comes up to me in a negative manner, you best believe, its better to have, than to have not. I like keeping my edge.

Like I said in another thread, its not us who'se the azzhole, its them ! Their bad if they don't let me leave in peace.

I enjoy your comments though, and I too still have much to learn.

So for now... Peace Out....Slayer
 
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