Which grit combinations for japanese stones?

C

chester90210

Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Messages
9
I'm looking into buying some japanese water stones and would like some recommendations of which grits I should get. I've searched on here but can't seem to nail down which grits would be the best to cover a good range of sharpening needs for a ridiculously sharp edge. I'll be using these on their own, and not to aid in using a sharpmaker or edge pro. Currently I'm looking at the stones from Lee valley, and bladegallery (I know of King brand stones, but what stones does Lee valley sell?) and japan woodworker. I was figuring on getting a combination 1000/4000 stone from lee valley and the 8000 grit they have on a mount. I would use the 1000 for the rougher edges, then through to the 8000. Would the 1000 be sufficient for duller blades, or should I look to get something lower like an 800/4000 and then use the 8000? I have some old beater blades that I got into knives with and for fun/practice would like to put a scary edge on em. I was also looking into their knife angle guide to keep things consistent as well as aiding in specific reprofiling until I got the muscle memory down to do it completely freehand. Does their angle guide have provision on it to set at a specific angle, or must that be figured out someway else?

I'm not worried about over polishing and not having a toothy enough blade to cut rope; I want the ultra polished sharp edge to scare myself, and see what a hair popping sharp blade is like. So that leads me to ask if the 8000 grit stone is sufficient enough to exceed what a sharpmaker could do (after some profficiency of course) with the stock ceramics? I've looked at the graph showing how the japanese stones compare to other methods and it's mighty impressive. :D I want to keep it overall around $60-$80 so that's why I'm looking at which specific stones to get, and also why I'm not coughing it up to buy a shapton stone.
 
Hi Chester,
Let me see if I can answer a couple of your questions...

1. Lee Valley, Japan WoodWorkers, and BladeGallery are all great sources for stones as well as many other items too. Also, try http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc

2. For grits I would recommend 120, 1000, 5000, & 8000 as a well rounded selection.
The 120 is great for removing nicks, the 1000 is great starting stone for really dull blades, the 5000 is mirror finish and is generally way more than needed for scaryness, and the 8000 is really unbelievable and possibly overkill.
*Note - Some will say that 8000 is unnessary while others will say that it's not a high enough grit. Maybe this may be one stone to wait on for the future?!?
You can go anywhere in between these suggestions as well if you like as I'm just throwing out my favorites.

I would personally recommend syaing away from wood mounted stones. I don't like not being able to use the other side of the stone. Just me, maybe??

3. I know you mentioned not coughing it up for Shapton stones, but I will highly recommend them as a consideration. Maybe a few more dollars today for less tomorrow? ;)
If you do ever try Shapton, look at their Professional Series stones. Excellant!! They're thinner than most waterstones but last longer, cut very fast, and you do not soak these stones prior to use. Just a sprinkle of water is all that's needed. The finish that they provide is exceptional.

4. As for Lee Valley's knife guide, I can't help there as I've only seen it in their cataloque. My personal opinion is not one of being impressed. ;)

The muscle memory thing, as well as technique used, is where you'll have the most trouble getting a sharpy-sharp edge, not necessarily the grit/stone you choose to use. I wish I could recommend a guide but I can't think of any worth suggesting. Just keep practicing freehand and you'll eventually get it.

5. One more thing to mention...
You may already have this planned out but I'll throw in my .02 cents anyway.
Stone flattening....The inevitable procedure that must be considered with waterstones.

If a budget is the concern I recommend LeeValley's glass lapping plate with PSA-backed plastic laminate sheet and their lapping abrasives. Remember though, use different plates with different lapping grits for the different stones.

When money becomes more available, and you want an upgrade, go for the Shapton Compact Lapping System. Very-very nice!! :)


Hope some of this helped...

--Raptor--
 
Yeah, the only wood mounted one is the 8000 grit, and I assume that will be ok since it isn't going to be soaked, and the time spent on that stone will probably be less than the heavy use the 1000/4000 will get. I completly agree with you about spending some today to save later, that's generally how I go about my purchases. Generally if I can't get what I really want I just abstain from wasting money by comprimising. I looked into how I could setup a system with the shaptons, but if I did that I wouldn't be able to get anything more than a stone or 2, and it seemed to me that wouldn't be as well rounded set. Hmmmm.....I could go with the 1000/4000 and then get the m5 series 12000 grit :) But at the same time is the jump from 4000-12,000 a little much? Or is the shapton just that good that it would pick up the slack? The biggest thing I like about the japanese stones is that it's easy to add to the stones, instead of having to buy a $60 upgrade kit like on the sharpmaker. Can you see that I take a looonnngg time to eventually workout the details of what I'm going to get :o
 
I totally agree with Raptor, I just got a few additional notes:
1.) I got my stones from www.hidatool.com and was extremely pleased. They are real japanese woodworkers and know what they like themselves.
2.) For the coarser grids you definitely need a lapping system (I like the glass plate, laminate and powder from lee valley), if you reprofile or remove nicks you easily dish out the stone. Don't worry, coarse grid stones are large and relatively cheap. I like the "small" Omura stone from hidatool. Cost $20 is very soft (protects a hard blade) and fast cutting, wears quickly but even the "small" stone is gigantic...its a brick. For the finer stones (approx. #700 and above), a #220 diamond stone (DTM) works great for flattening.
3.) The Bester brand is very fast cutting and wears very slowly, great stone. However, you have to use lots of water to keep it from glazing (a price you pay for the slow wear) and it doesn't have the typical great feel of a japanese water stone. Its much harder. Once you get used to it, I think it is a better stone than the King stones.
4) I prefer #700 over #1000. I think the #1000 is not the best trade off: Doesn't cut as agressively as #700 but isn't fine enough that I would finish a blade on #1000 (the grid numbers are nowhere near linear).
5) I really like the man made (nonparaille) blue (Aoto) stone. Great for touch ups. Lets say you have a nice 15 deg edge, touch up on the blue at 20 deg is fast, and gives great results with little material removal. Now that is a stone I would consider finishing an edge on, usually I go to real finishing stone though. The blue stone (small from hida, is the same size as sold by most other stores) is *very* large (almost as large as the Omura), very soft and very fast cutting for its grit. To me has the ultimate japanese waterstone "feel" to it. You easily cut into it if you use too high pressure combined with a steep angle, but the softness of the stone will protect the edge (exactly the opposite of the Bester stones). The combination of two grids makes for the perfect "tomato edge". The stone is very messy (very colorful swarf, its called "blue" stone for a reason).

Good luck choosing your set!
 
Most people who sharpen traditional Japanese cutlery use 1000 and 6000 grit. These would only be appropriate on sporting knives after you had ground bevels with something more coarse. Coarse in a waterstone is usually around 220 grit. So I would have these three.

Personally I use 220, 1000, 2000 and 8000 for my Japanese knives. If you need a fixture then you might consider the Edgepro Apex which uses waterstones. If you want a very, very brief description of how to sharpen a traditional Japanese kitchen knife you can go to http://www.knifeoutlet.com/traditional.htm and see a couple of shots of me at work on a yanagi. I actually prefer to do them by hand because the Edgepro tends to scratch up the sides of the blades. That's OK for some knives but not my best Japanese cutlery.
 
Hehe, damn you Hob! Just when I about settle into what I'm going to buy you give me that hidatool site :p I was looking at the aoto stone on bladegallery, but the only one they had was $80 :grumpy: That $20 one on hidatool looks great though. I still want to try and work in a real fine stone just to make my knives stupid sharp. New tentative plan: Binsuo 800#,small aoto 2000-3000, and something for stupid sharp around 40-50 dollars. Thinking to still go with the lee vally 8000#, or to somehow work in that shapton m5 12,000. Any sites with prices cheaper than shaptons $60 list? If i'm being a pain in the ass I apologize, but I figure you guys are probably even more obsessive than me about these things lol. Just hate the idea of not exploring something for that extra 10mins and missing something great.

Edit: I'm going to be pathetic and waver with this combo idea, king 220/800 combo, natural aoto 2000-3000, and lee valley 8000. That would give me the course 220 for nicks/reprofiling, 800 for starting the edge, aoto to begin polishing, and the 8000 to scare myself; and it comes out right around $80 or so.
 
I started with a combination stone as well and in retrospect I would recommend to go with fewer grids and larger (single) stones. You can always add a stone if you like them. If you don't have knives that have nicks or need to be re-profiled, you can save yourself the coarse stone for now and add that later if you like. Especially since the coarse stone is misleadingly cheap as you really need something to flatten it.
For the coarse stone I would definitely go with a single grid, they are the only stones that noticably wear, because the only time you will use a coarse stone, is when you want to remove MAJOR material (half-millimeter nick, reprofiling from 20-15 deg etc.).
Just my $0.02
 
Raptor said:
All great advice from these guys!! :)

I think we left out one thing though...

Nagura

--Raptor--
Click to expand...

Got that covered. I'm going to order the binsuo 800, natural aoto, and a shapton m5 12,000 i found for $40. Ordering from heda tools, and japan woodworker.I'll just pick up a grit 220 in a couple weeks or sooner if I end up needing it.
 
I am sure you will be quite pleased with your stones!

Raptor really hit the nail on the head though, when he talked about the muscle memory. I find a wooden wedge cut to the desired angle and painted with polyurethan (to keep it from absorbing water and warping) helps me keeping very precise angle control. The human hand is an amazing tool. What I continue to practice everytime I go to the stones is just how much pressure to apply and how to best hold the knife. Needs lots of experience and practice.

I, too, wish I had a jig, but just as Raptor, I haven't found one that would work with benchstones and would be worth its money.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top