Which of 2 Knives Best for a First Time Sharpener

[OldMarineVet]

Bench stones are delivered. Deciding between 2 knives for the first try: Wusthoff, Grand Prix, Steak knife (15 degree angle?), cuts steak good but not paper at all.... or Buck, 3 1/4" Fixed blade (22.5 degree angle?) barely cuts paper. Any recommendations on which knife would be the easiest for guinea pig #1? Is the "cut paper" test a good standard for all knives? Thank you

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Bench stones are delivered. Deciding between 2 knives for the first try: Wusthoff, Grand Prix, Steak knife (15 degree angle?), cuts steak good but not paper at all.... or Buck, 3 1/4" Fixed blade (22.5 degree angle?) barely cuts paper. Any recommendations on which knife would be the easiest for guinea pig #1? Is the "cut paper" test a good standard for all knives? Thank you

Depending on how one goes about the paper-cutting, and how the results are interpreted, a whole lot can be determined about the sharpness and readiness of your finished edges. I cut phonebook paper to test my edges frequently while sharpening. The first and most obvious 'test' is to see if it'll cut at all. Following that, I'll see if there are any snags or slips during the cut; the snags usually indicate the presence of a burr (at the location of the snag), and slipping would most often indicate an incomplete apex (rounded or blunt edge). Doing this test very SLOWLY really highlights where the problems are along the edge, so it's very useful in locating the burrs and the blunt areas, so they can be immediately addressed. Start at the heel of the edge, and then draw the blade very slowly through the paper, all the way to the blade's tip, and watch to see where the snags and slips happen. Also pay attention to the 'feel' of the cut, via your fingers holding the knife. The smoothness and uniformity of the edge will make a difference in how smooth it feels in your fingers; with some experience at this, you can fine-tune the 'bite' in the edge according to how this feels. A 'toothy' bite can feel & sound sort of like a zipper as you draw the blade through the paper, and a more polished but still wickedly-sharp edge will feel almost effortless and buttery (and sounds quieter, like a 'whisper'). The geometry of the edge will also influence how it feels and sounds. A mirrored and very thin convex is very, very 'slick-feeling' in the cut (and very quiet), and a thicker V-bevel's shoulders will create more drag, consequently resulting in more 'noise', like the sound of ripping paper (though if the paper is literally 'ripping', it's not sharp yet ).

You can take all the above tests even further, in holding the handle of the knife at the very butt-end, between only one finger and your thumb, and seeing how easy it is to cut holding it that way; almost literally just the weight of the knife doing the work. It's fun doing this test holding the knife with only the thumb and pinky finger (be careful not to drop the knife).

(Edit: Another test would be to do all the above after cutting into some wood a few times, to verify the edge is both durable and sharp. Eliminates the possibility of a too-thin edge, or a stiff burr, mimicking a 'sharp' edge initially, then failing quickly when it folds over.)

As for which knife is best for starting out, I'd generally recommend smaller & thinner blades first. In your case, I'd assume that would be your Wusthof steak knife. Trying to start with a thickly-ground and large, heavy blade will really test one's patience, as most will need to have the edges thinned and therefore a lot of steel needs to come off. As a beginner project, those usually don't go well (heavy grinding breeds fatigue, and fatigue breeds sloppy work and tons of frustration). If your Buck fixed blade is fairly thin, their 420HC should respond very well to good technique, so a lot of reward could come in that one. If it is thin, you might even start with that one, as the steel is more predictable in how it should respond with the tools and methods we most often use. It's a good 'middle-of-the-road' steel in that respect. Wusthof's stainless can be somewhat 'gummy' in sharpening, and burrs can be more tenacious and difficult to deal with at times. It's not hard to sharpen, but it helps to have some experience in dealing with burrs, in sharpening it. At minimum, always keep pressure as light as possible, so the burrs won't get so big and difficult to begin with.


David

 

[OldMarineVet]

David, thank you very much for the great recommendation. The piece about "paper cutting" testing is excellent. And the analysis regarding the guinea pig #1 knife is outstanding. The largest width of the Buck blade spine (?) is about a tenth of an inch. Would that be considered "fairly thin?" I think I'll start with the Wusthof steak knife since it's more expendable. Thanks for the heads up about the gumminess and the excessive burring. If I can master the steak knife, maybe I'll have developed a decent/light stroke. Assuming a 15 degree angle. I will start today. Thanks again for the great help.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Stop often and observe the effect of your efforts, especially working on the Wusthof. Many makers of kitchen cutlery use very low RC stainless, and on stones with good grinding speed one can easily create a new bevel in a surprisingly short amount of time and number of passes.

My standard advice is to go slow and observe often, and be self-critical of your technique from the get-go.

 

[tueller]

Depending on how one goes about the paper-cutting, and how the results are interpreted, a whole lot can be determined about the sharpness and readiness of your finished edges. I cut phonebook paper to test my edges frequently while sharpening. The first and most obvious 'test' is to see if it'll cut at all. Following that, I'll see if there are any snags or slips during the cut; the snags usually indicate the presence of a burr (at the location of the snag), and slipping would most often indicate an incomplete apex (rounded or blunt edge). Doing this test very SLOWLY really highlights where the problems are along the edge, so it's very useful in locating the burrs and the blunt areas, so they can be immediately addressed. Start at the heel of the edge, and then draw the blade very slowly through the paper, all the way to the blade's tip, and watch to see where the snags and slips happen. Also pay attention to the 'feel' of the cut, via your fingers holding the knife. The smoothness and uniformity of the edge will make a difference in how smooth it feels in your fingers; with some experience at this, you can fine-tune the 'bite' in the edge according to how this feels. A 'toothy' bite can feel & sound sort of like a zipper as you draw the blade through the paper, and a more polished but still wickedly-sharp edge will feel almost effortless and buttery (and sounds quieter, like a 'whisper'). The geometry of the edge will also influence how it feels and sounds. A mirrored and very thin convex is very, very 'slick-feeling' in the cut (and very quiet), and a thicker V-bevel's shoulders will create more drag, consequently resulting in more 'noise', like the sound of ripping paper (though if the paper is literally 'ripping', it's not sharp yet ).

You can take all the above tests even further, in holding the handle of the knife at the very butt-end, between only one finger and your thumb, and seeing how easy it is to cut holding it that way; almost literally just the weight of the knife doing the work. It's fun doing this test holding the knife with only the thumb and pinky finger (be careful not to drop the knife).

(Edit: Another test would be to do all the above after cutting into some wood a few times, to verify the edge is both durable and sharp. Eliminates the possibility of a too-thin edge, or a stiff burr, mimicking a 'sharp' edge initially, then failing quickly when it folds over.)

As for which knife is best for starting out, I'd generally recommend smaller & thinner blades first. In your case, I'd assume that would be your Wusthof steak knife. Trying to start with a thickly-ground and large, heavy blade will really test one's patience, as most will need to have the edges thinned and therefore a lot of steel needs to come off. As a beginner project, those usually don't go well (heavy grinding breeds fatigue, and fatigue breeds sloppy work and tons of frustration). If your Buck fixed blade is fairly thin, their 420HC should respond very well to good technique, so a lot of reward could come in that one. If it is thin, you might even start with that one, as the steel is more predictable in how it should respond with the tools and methods we most often use. It's a good 'middle-of-the-road' steel in that respect. Wusthof's stainless can be somewhat 'gummy' in sharpening, and burrs can be more tenacious and difficult to deal with at times. It's not hard to sharpen, but it helps to have some experience in dealing with burrs, in sharpening it. At minimum, always keep pressure as light as possible, so the burrs won't get so big and difficult to begin with.


David

Wow. That was very helpful. I never thought of all the analysis you could get out of the paper test. Thank you.

 

[GatorFlash1]

I would suggest practicing on the kitchen knives, all of them, large and small. Get good with these and then try out sharpening your more expensive folders, etc.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, thank you very much for the great recommendation. The piece about "paper cutting" testing is excellent. And the analysis regarding the guinea pig #1 knife is outstanding. The largest width of the Buck blade spine (?) is about a tenth of an inch. Would that be considered "fairly thin?" I think I'll start with the Wusthof steak knife since it's more expendable. Thanks for the heads up about the gumminess and the excessive burring. If I can master the steak knife, maybe I'll have developed a decent/light stroke. Assuming a 15 degree angle. I will start today. Thanks again for the great help.

That's thin enough to not be too much of an obstacle. My own gauge for these is, anything < 1/8" (at the spine) is relatively easy to deal with, and also widely representative of most knives people will use regularly, so it's not a bad teaching example. Anything > 1/8" begins to be a big chore and can add extra complications, if it's not already thinned out behind the edge. At the low end of the spectrum, very thin hollow grinds will almost always be the easiest, as they're typically very thin behind the edge, so it doesn't need much metal removal to completely reset an edge.


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Wow. That was very helpful. I never thought of all the analysis you could get out of the paper test. Thank you.

As done it that manner, the paper-cutting test has never failed me. Also happens to be a great and therapeutic way to dispose of old phonebooks, catalogs, newspapers & magazines with a little 'poor man's shredding'. My wastebaskets are always, always full of shredded paper.


David

 

[OldMarineVet]

So I started with the Wusthof steak knife. My clumsy stroke had plenty of burs on one side of the blade. Trying to refine my stroke started putting the burs on the other side. Went back and forth between Arkansas Hard and Arkansas Black and trying to refine stoke eventually evened out the detectable burs. The steak knife actually cut a bit of paper for the first time, but then I lost that Fatigue was setting in but I tried the Buck quickly with both stones. It cut paper ok so I PUT IT DOWN to work on today. Then I took the SOG Trident Folder out of my pocket and tried the straight portion (combo serrated) of that blade and it cut paper ok. PUT IT DOWN to work on today. Looking forward to trying to finish up the Buck and SOG Trident today. If all goes well, I'll try a different steak knife the next day. Thanks for the help.